Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[dowie]

re: the IAAF vs the court for arbitration in sport. It looks like there is a now a new study to show what we basically already knew - that testosterone has a significant impact on performance:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...undertake-hormone-therapy-for-future-olympics

Caster Semenya, the Olympic 800m champion, may be banned from competing at future Games unless she undergoes hormone replacement therapy (HRT) or even surgery in the wake of a landmark study into athletes with raised testosterone levels which has just been published.

The International Association of Athletics Federations, the world governing body, commissioned research which has produced the most conclusive evidence yet that female athletes with very high levels of naturally occurring testosterone receive significant performance-enhancing benefits in competition.

[...]

Researchers measured blood testosterone levels in 1,332 female athletes competing across 21 track and field disciplines at the 2011 and 2013 world championships. Those with the highest levels of testosterone demonstrated significant advantages over those with the lowest levels – notably in the 400m (2.7% faster), the 400m hurdles (2.8% faster), the 800m (1.8% faster), the hammer throw (4.5% longer) and in the pole vault (2.9% higher).

Although these margins appear small, at the highest level a performance boost of a few percentage points might mean the difference between winning gold and missing out on a medal.

Bit unfortunate that the CAS made such a stupid ruling in the first place leading to the utter farce that was the 800m final in Rio... there were rather obvious questions raised about all three medalists in that event and unsurprisingly the women placed 4th-6th were rather gutted, GB athlete Lynsey Sharp then got slated by some sections of the media for her comments.

 

[dowie]

Seems a bit unfair if its purely naturally occuring

Should Bolt be penalised because he naturally has longer legs than most and a lot of fast twitch fibres?

Shock horror as a 'better' physical specimen performs better.

this line of argument is a bit silly, we don't segregate based on length of legs, we segregate based on gender

 

[dowie]

So if she is 'intersex'...where exactly can 'she' compete?

well there seem to be a few positions on this

one is that we shouldn't exclude minorities and therefore intersex athletes should just go ahead and compete as women if they choose to identify as women

another is that women are a protected category, gender segregation exists to protect women and to allow them to compete, someone who isn't really a 'woman' shouldn't therefore be competing in the female category (I guess at international level you could have an intersex and trans category but at the local club level it would probably have to be the men's category for anyone who isn't fully female)

lastly there is the compromise position that says we allow intersex people to compete but they'll either need their testes removed or will need to take testosterone suppressing medication - this was the case perviously until in 2015 when an Indian athlete went to the CAS and got a ruling to stop this.

strangely enough when Caster was undergoing this treatment her times suddenly became much slower - notice in the below clip where she is interviewed after Lynsey she blames that recent performance issue on an injury etc.. but seemingly miraculously after the CAS made it's silly decision then Caster was suddenly back on top form in the 2016 Olympics

 

[dowie]

Exactly - so why has testosterone been singled out when it's clearly not the only factor that influences performance?

because we segregate based on gender not based on how tall someone is etc.. this was answered already in the first few posts

she's an intersex athlete competing in a woman's event, as a result she has a huge advantage due to her internal testes and high testosterone levels (which is one of the main reasons for male athletes having better performance in athletic events than female athletes) - the compromise is to allow intersex (or indeed trans) people to compete provided they either artificially lower their testosterone or have their testes removed (personally I think this is a big of a fudge as they've still got other advantages as a result of being essentially males without penises who've been brought up and identify as females)

I don't see it as an unfair advantage. She's in the wrong category full stop. You could argue that she isn't quite a man, having only testicles but no penis, but she's more man than woman.

indeed, she was basically born as a male baby that didn't develop a penis properly as a result of a birth defect - she'll still have a Y chromosome, a male figure, strength etc.. it's just she has a vagina with no ovaries and has been brought up identifying as a girl

 

[dowie]

It's not really as simple as that. She's intersex, not just a man with no penis.

The hormonal or genetic (IANA Doctor) influences that caused her to develop as a girl (in terms of vagina, internal testes - rather like ovaries etc) would also affect her in other ways that would mean she is not fully male. This may be height, muscle mass, bone density, lung capacity etc.

I know she's intersex and not male, I didn't claim she was male. I did highlight that if it wasn't for this defect she'd have been male though, that is all I was highlighting there, that essentially as a result of this defect a person that otherwise would have been a male baby was born intersex/without a penis

I honestly find mandating hormone treatments to compete a very bad solution. It's not forcing her to take them as she could decide to quit running, but it's a lot of pressure. I don't think anyone should sending out the message that people need to be hormone treated to make them normal. She was born that way. Society should not say she needs to change. I also am hesitant to start defining sex as "you have X level of testosterone". Let her be who she is, but require her to compete in the male events as she should. That will mean that she doesn't place, I expect. But that's the same as the vast majority of other men on the planet. It's not unfair.

I'd be inclined to agree but the compromise has come about as gender testing is seen as being highly unethical these days, thus we've instead got the crude solution of testing for testosterone as a proxy as that is one of the main advantages and reasons for segregation (this could also allow trans athletes to compete which is another can of worms in itself)

 

[dowie]

For reference the current 'womens' 800m world record holder

https://goo.gl/images/qk2vLo

this sort of stuff just makes a mockery of the sport, seems pretty plausible that she was doping

Semenya probably could have beaten that time at the Olympics if she'd put the effort in but she didn't need to and probably didn't want to add to the controversy around her competing anyway.

 

[dowie]

Just the muscle shape/tone. Theres no way you would say that is a woman. I mean...they even have a "bulge"...

this whole farce came about because sex testing is now seen as wrong/un-PC etc.. so they needed an alternative/compromise to stop this happening so decided to limit testosterone... but were very careful not to call it sex testing - problem is when the Indian athlete challenged it one of the things brought up was that this testosterone testing only applies to women athletes not male ones. (well of course it does because it is basically a proxy for a sex test but they can't say that)

also, interesting, transgender athletes can compete as women too and they don't need to be post op

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

Transgender athletes should be allowed to compete in the Olympics and other international events without undergoing sex reassignment surgery, according to new guidelines adopted by the IOC.

International Olympic Committee medical officials said on Sunday they changed the policy to adapt to current scientific, social and legal attitudes on transgender issues.

The guidelines are designed as recommendations – not rules or regulations – for international sports federations and other bodies to follow and should apply for this year’s Olympics in Rio de Janeiro.

“I don’t think many federations have rules on defining eligibility of transgender individuals,” IOC medical director Dr Richard Budgett said. “This should give them the confidence and stimulus to put these rules in place.”

Under the previous IOC guidelines, approved in 2003, athletes who transitioned from male to female or vice versa were required to have reassignment surgery followed by at least two years of hormone therapy in order to be eligible to compete.

Now, surgery will no longer be required, with female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men’s competitions “without restriction”.

Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.

So I guess if we've got both trans and intersex athletes competing as 'women' then the testosterone tests become rather important and the previous CAS ruling that allowed the recent farce in Rio wasn't helpful at all, it is rather a good thing that the IAAF now have a study to use in their appeal.

Personally I still don't see that it is particularly fair, there is more to the male advantage in athletics than just T levels and trans and intersex athletes still benefit from this, perhaps it may stop them from dominating the medals table at the highest levels but it is basically still just sweeping the problem under the carpet as you'll still have them getting into national squads etc.. at the expense of actual women who'd have otherwise had that place/opportunity.

 

[dowie]

So basically some bloke can stick a wig on and bash a woman's brains out in a boxing ring? Sounds totally safe.

In theory, yep. UFC had a similar controversy with a post op trans person:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox

 

[dowie]

this story popped up on Facebook today via the olympics page - here is the youtube video from a few weeks ago - a transgender athlete gets a spot in a female volleyball team (so presumably some girl who worked her ass off loses out on what would have otherwise been her place)

 

[dowie]

So you're saying a woman who is a transgender male (female to male) should be able to compete in women's sports

no, he's talking about transgender women (male to female) but has described them as transgender men, which has confused things

There are no simple answers.

well there are simple answers just not everyone likes them, just as not everyone likes the less simple ones too

I mean one simple answer is to just let anyone compete simply if they say they are male or female

another simple answer is to say that the female category is the protected one so anyone who isn't fully female (i.e. intersex or trans) doesn't get to compete in that category

 

[dowie]

he's saying they should only be alowed to compete as thier birth gender.

So a trans man would under his rules be competing against women despite medically having the testosterone level of a man

he didn't say that though and it doesn't logically follow - if a trans man is taking testosterone then that would be doping and so shouldn't be allowed

however if a trans man isn't taking anything but just defining himself socially as a man while biologically being a woman then sure, why not...

 

[dowie]

But gender is not well defined when it comes to sports.

well not any more, it could be but then it gets back to the whole sex testing thing that was quite controversial

the compromise is hormone levels and getting people to suppress them - though this then got overturned and caused the farce in the 800m at the last olympics, it also doesn't deal with the muscular skeletal advantages that say trans woman has when competing in say volleyball or MMA

 

[dowie]

well the most.likely thing to happen in the medium term is the IAAF goes back to court and finally gets a ruling that says we can go back to the suppression of hormones for these intersex athletes

at the moment though Semenya is free to compete with her male testes and male levels of testosterone - essentially competing as a man in women's sport albeit with genitalia that didn't form properly at birth

at the Olympics I think people thought she was holding back a bit, that despite winning she could have done so much better - though of course it was a big improvement compared to when she had to suppress her testosterone levels

interestingly at the upcoming events in London she's entered for both the 1500m and the 800m - I wonder if this is the time where should will put in maximum effort and set a record in the 800m (and perhaps try to get a medal in the 1500m too) - perhaps she knows the window is likely going to close in the near future and if/when suppression of testosterone is enforced again she'll not be winning anything. Will be interesting to see in the next few days - maybe London will be one of her last chances to perform at the highest level.

 

[dowie]

Might well be what they settle on, but a bad approach, imo. This whole thing came about because some people objected to sex testing. They objected, I suspect, because they disliked the idea of society imposing its definitions of sex on individuals. In my opinion and were I in charge, they'd just have to accept that. We shouldn't abolish women's competitive sport because some people don't like being categorised as men or women.

yup, I said medium term as I do wonder if in the long term we'll come full circle... for example as trans people become more acceptable we'll probably have more people transitioning at an earlier age, greater participation of trans people in sports etc.. we could then have a situation where the muscular skeletal advantages of trans people cause some sports to become farcical - perhaps women's boxing, wrestling, MMA etc.. maybe basketball with the height advantage etc.. you might well find in 30 years time, with no change in rules, that trans people end up disproportionately represented in women's sport - that is when there could be pressure for further change

 

[dowie]

yeah and it cost GB athlete Laura Muir a medal...

 

[dowie]

well here (s)he is with her wife:

 

[dowie]

I think that this must be pretty tough for naturally born female competitors. It is difficult as people are sensitive to the rights of people to self determine their sex, but female sport may need protection, otherwise it could gradually become dominated by transgender athletes. Should we be considering different categories?

I'm going to stick with my opinion I had previously - the female category ought to be the protected one and anyone not quite "female" (for reasons that give an obvious advantage - intersex, used to be a man etc..) ought to be excluded from the protected category and compete in the other category: "male". If we want to re-brand "male" "not-natural-born-female" or "other" or something then whatevs... or if the intersex and trans athletes want a separate category each then again that's a fair enough variation too (though there are lots of potential interest conditions so that could get messy again).

But basic principle should be that the intention of the female category was to allow women to participate in sport by recognising that a separate category was needed because of the obvious physical advantages of men, letting people who cross the boundaries into it defeats the purpose of having it in the first place and means women who have worked so hard to train/compete are potentially robbed of medals they'd have otherwise won.

 

[dowie]

Trying to conflate this with someone having big feet is a bit ridiculous. In running (and in swimming) the only segregation is by sex.

 

[dowie]

I'm just trying to say that both are entirely natural conditions. If I tried to wear fins to compete in a swimming comp I would be thrown out. Thorpe had a huge natural advantage, as does Semenya.

I know what you were trying to say, you've just repeated it... I can repeat again that we don't segregate based on those sorts of physical features, we segregated based on sex.

 

[dowie]

And Semenya is female. She just has a condition that gives her some male characteristics. Just like some women have blonde hair/brown eyes.

she's intersex, she's more male really but she choses to identify as female, that is the issue.. if you're going to segregate based on sex, then it is a bit farcical to let someone with the physical benefits of a man compete as a woman