kind of irrelevant, I think everyone posting is well aware that their opinion/post on the matter isn't going to affect her eligibility
Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics
- Thread starter dowie
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kind of irrelevant, I think everyone posting is well aware that their opinion/post on the matter isn't going to affect her eligibility
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48102479
This bit seems a bit optimistic: "For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger. The decision of Cas will not hold me back," I suspect that her times will drop off significantly once the testosterone is reduced.
This is still a minefield though, this is a bit of a fudge to balance her desire to compete as a woman and the fact she's apparently got male advantages. Testosterone reduction doesn't avoid other issues such as say bone structure/height etc.. in boxing, wrestling or basketball.
This bit seems a bit optimistic: "For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger. The decision of Cas will not hold me back," I suspect that her times will drop off significantly once the testosterone is reduced.
This is still a minefield though, this is a bit of a fudge to balance her desire to compete as a woman and the fact she's apparently got male advantages. Testosterone reduction doesn't avoid other issues such as say bone structure/height etc.. in boxing, wrestling or basketball.
For the same reason half the population is, to allow women to participate in athletics.
Not say men’s events and “women’s events” dominated by trans women and intersex people with male advantages but identifying as female.
Why did you think that with regards to this area? Is that your personal view? Do you think we shouldn’t have rules separating men and women in athletics for example?
I guess part of it is the way it’s been reported. It’s often been reported that she’s simply a woman with a condition that gives her high testosterone, which in terms of gender/current identity politics is correct but then easily plays into the narrative that they’re out to get her because she’s too good etc...
The intersex aspect, essentially biological advantages of a man albeit her balls are undescended and her penis didn’t develop, is sometimes omitted when, with regards to sport, under current rules sex matters.
We don't segregate in athletics based on body proportions we segregate based on sex or gender (depending on the rules).
I guess some sports do practice other forms of segregation such as boxing segregating by weight class. I'm not sure there is huge demand for it but maybe you could segregate swimmers, though that is an entirely separate discussion really.
That does indeed seem conflicted, you could make exactly the same argument about M to F trans people and claim they were born that way and they are female.
Yes both Semenya and M to F trans women identify as female, though they've got some obvious male advantages that they were born with and if we're segregating into male and female groups specifically as a result of those advantages then letting some people through as a result of identity is rather flawed and defeats the purpose of segregating in the first place.
I'm not sure she's strictly either, she's an intersex person raised as and identifying as a woman AFAIK.
Erm... have you got any evidence that the IAAF didn't find she was intersex?
AFAIK they never released the results, there were however leaks...
If you're going to claim they repeatedly found she was female then please do link to the results because AFAIK they never released them officially.
@Mr Jack
this was the leak:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/o...er-Semenya-is-a-hermaphrodite-tests-show.html
So visually there is seemingly no penis, but internally she's apparently got testes...
Are you still going to maintain that they found out she was female when testing here - in which case what is the basis for your claim?
this was the leak:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/o...er-Semenya-is-a-hermaphrodite-tests-show.html
So visually there is seemingly no penis, but internally she's apparently got testes...
Are you still going to maintain that they found out she was female when testing here - in which case what is the basis for your claim?
no one claimed a pair of hanging balls, please don't throw in a straw man argument here.... and they clearly don't want her competing as female unless she undergoes some treatment else this case wouldn't exist
so you can't back up the claim you made above where you asserted: "If it WAS the case the IAAF wouldn't haven't repeatedly found that she is female"
You don't know that they did, according to both the public statement from the IAAF and leak it seems she is intersex
I'm not claiming she is a man trying to pass as a woman AFAIK she is intersex. You made a claim that she has been repeatedly found to be female, you have no basis to make that claim.
Trying to portray this as simply a woman with higher than normal testosterone is what draws the flawed comparisons to say Bolt having longer legs etc.. We segregate athletics into male and female events, if she's not really completely female then that does pose a dilemma.
Perhaps try reading the thread/considering the context here, even just the recent posts, where the internal testes have been referred to.
You've asserted this to be untrue and further asserted a claim re: the findings of the IAAF, which you can't back up...
That implied you'd heard the allegation before, it has been both reported and mentioned in this thread... though perhaps you mistakenly assumed that in order to have testes she'd have them externally.
Nice rather than a response or anything to back up your claim you throw in an ad hominem in reply to a point... you quite clearly made an assertion, it is quoted above and you can't back it up ergo you've resorted to insults about my reading ability.
I don't believe anyone is using words in a new way here, you're seemingly just ignoring context, haven't read earlier posts/information in the thread that would give context and are apparently unaware of the leaks.
What difference does it make with regards to your opinion if her testes are descended or not? Your previous statement implied that if they were present then this wouldn't come down to testosterone levels?
Also as you were seemingly unaware previously of the leak, would the presence of undescended testes change your opinion?
I'm questioning your assertions, not wikipedia's. Can you be more specific with regards to what you're referring to exactly when you say "passed her as female"? As far as I'm aware they didn't publish the results of the test they carried out. As already posted the public statement from an IAAF spokesman indicated that she is intersex and the leaked test apparently shows that too.
I suspect you're trying to obfuscate now... I think everyone is aware that she has competed as a female, your claim was, in response to the poster asserting that she has a pair of "balls" which he meant in reference to undefended testes and you seemingly took to mean descended testes:
You've ignored the second question I asked above - so undescended testes don't matter in your opinion. Given you assumed the poster was referring to descended testes by "a pair of balls" What difference does it make with regards to your opinion if her testes are descended or not? Your previous statement implied that if they were present then this wouldn't come down to testosterone levels? Why does visual presentation matter to you here?
Now you're just being deliberately obtuse...
You previously stated in response to the testes allegation:
"If it WAS the case the IAAF wouldn't haven't repeatedly found that she is female"
We're well aware she has been allowed to compete as a female and that in order to clear her to do so the IAAF has wanted her to suppress her testosterone levels, AFAIK that is because she is intersex!
Yeah they're totally cool with it, especially when they lose out on medals because seemingly the top three are allegedly all intersex:
Occasionally they do give an interview indicating that they're not very happy with the situation, that then results in backlash towards them with accusations of racism etc.. etc..
I suspect, given the below, that most would rather the governing body sorted it out, which is what the IAAF seems to be trying to do.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/21/lynsey-sharp-caster-semenya-rio-2016-olympics
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There is a bit of overlap and similar dilemmas tbh...
I mean she has been raised as a female but has perhaps known for around a decade now at least that she's actually biologically male albeit her penis didn't develop.
There are other intersex people who might have a bit of both etc...
I guess it depends on the definitions here - if you take a sort of blind position in that anyone "assigned female" at birth (regardless of whether they really are) who stays female is a "cis" female then yes you could say her gender is simply female and she's not trans. She's been raised as female all her life so I guess has never transitioned etc.. she's still intersex though. Arguably you could also say that plenty of people who are intersex and identify as a binary gender are "trans" (particularly where there is significant ambiguity or biological aspects of the opposite gender they identify as) as in modern terms their "gender" if matching their sex is perhaps "non binary".
There is quite a high proportion of homosexuality among intersex people IIRC. Caster is in fact married to a woman, and indeed seems to take the "male" role in that relationship. I guess this shouldn't be too surprising, most biological males are attracted to females:
I think overall her position is an incredibly selfish one, she knows and has known for years that she's essentially a man without a penis but has been happy to carry on competing as a female and actively fought to keep the male advantage she has while robbing women of their place on the podium.
Almost certainly not capable of giving birth, allegedly no womb or ovaries either... unlikely to have functioning breasts. She is seemingly mostly a male whose sexual organ didn't properly develop ergo she has no penis and her balls didn't drop but are internal.
Yup, also Sharp who perhaps would have got herself a bronze medal in Rio if it weren't for the dropping of testosterone levels was in the same race:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48153742
Doesn't seem to be much AFAIK other than the fact key male attributes didn't develop properly and she's been raised as a female as a result of her condition.
Well they're not forcing her to do that, it is her choice to compete, but I do agree that it isn't something they should encourage, ideally she and other intersex athletes simply shouldn't be allowed to compete in the female category.
One solution is to have the "male" category redesignated as an "open" category, another would be to have a third intersex and trans category, or perhaps a seperate trans and intersex games just like the paralympics etc.. (or perhaps even combined with events like that).
Though I guess it has been hard enough to get the evidence needed simply to show a clear advantage in middle distance events, arguments about rather more subtile advantages in other events are going to be harder to demonstrate.
One solution is to have the "male" category redesignated as an "open" category, another would be to have a third intersex and trans category, or perhaps a seperate trans and intersex games just like the paralympics etc.. (or perhaps even combined with events like that).
Though I guess it has been hard enough to get the evidence needed simply to show a clear advantage in middle distance events, arguments about rather more subtile advantages in other events are going to be harder to demonstrate.
Well no, she’s a (biological) woman. That article isn’t interesting it is the usual misleading stuff with the flawed comparisons. A woman can have natural high testosterone for a woman or long legs etc...
The issue is intersex people who identify as female while being biologically male. If they don’t suppress their testosterone levels then they can be the equivalent of a good club/national level in terms of males and end up beating professional females.