Challenging a speed camera ticket due to no "change of speed" sign

[SheffMan]

I got done for doing 36mph in a 30 zone, on a dual carriageway with a central reservation (here) ! It really annoyed me actually because I never deliberately break the speed limit, it was an accident because it was in Bournemouth. I live in Sheffield and therefore I am unfamiliar with the roads and constantly changing speed limits down there.
I could not understand how I got caught out so I have subsequently spent much time examining Google streetview and there does not appear to be on of those large "change of speed limit sign" down to the lower 30 from the higher 40 limit it undoubtedly was just 200 yards up the road on the other side of the roundabout !

A couple of questions to the esteemed members of this forum if I may :

1 - Is the absence of said "change of speed limit sign" sufficient grounds to challenge the "offence". Particularly because I am not from the area and therefore I cannot know what the speed limit is other than from the signage.

2 - Even if it is grounds must I attend the court in person as I live a 5 hour drive from Bournemouth ? If I do have to attend, which is obviously impractical, that's even more unfair to "non local" people as I effectively have to plead "guilty".

 

[SheffMan]

I was coming off one dual carriageway onto another.
As far as I can tell this roundabout (the "Mountbatten roundabout" in Bournemouth) is where the speed limit changes : A3049 onto it (DC) is 40mph, the A3049 off it (SC) is 40mph, but the A348 (DC) is only 30mph (but it doesn't actually tell you that ! ).

 

[SheffMan]

I cant see a sign on streetview BUT the date of scanning the area is 2 years ago.

You would have to go back there and be sure of it in person before trying to claim there's no signage.

That speed camera was put in in 2023 and is on the streetview with no 30mph change of speed limit sign.....
Incidentally I woudl be interested to know why that camera was put in.
I have looked at Crash Map for that site and there were only 6 "Slight" accidents (non serious and no fatalities) in the 6 years before that camera went in (i.e. from 2018 to 2023) at that site :

2018 = none
2019 = 1
2020 = 1
2021 = 4
2022= none
2023 = none

That is not many considering how busy that road is.

To be fair Crashmap's defintion of "slight" accident is purely on the seriousness of any injuries. There was a pretty bad accident near our house with some prat in an Audi (of course it was...) who wrote his car off with both air bags deployed and that was still classified as "slight".

 

[SheffMan]

I can see some signage.

Probably help if you drew your route but

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Bear in mind again this is 2 years out of date

Here.
Mountbatten Roundabout (next to the Miller & Carter) is where the speed limit appears to change. It just doesn't tell you.....
Whatever the legal small print I think it stinks.

 

[SheffMan]

So you're going from poole lane down ringwood road?

There's a 30mph and camera sign as you enter ringwood road

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

To be fair that's a minute repeater looking like a speed camera sign ! There did not appear to be a big "change of speed limit" sign which is what one would have expected, particularly if there's a soddin' camera there !
Just out of interest, is the "30" on that speed camera sign the same size as the actual (30) digits on a normal repeater ?

If I had been knowingly speeding and got caught I'd hold my hands up, but I was not, that's what is p1ssing me off so much. The fact is if I had devoted 80% of my concentration to looking for speed cameras (or trying to confirm what the speed limit is in the absence of "limit change" signs...) I wouldn't have got caught (that's why many inveterate speeders don't get caught ! ) but that is dangerous surely ? People should be devoting the vast majority of their concentration to avoiding an accident.....

 

[SheffMan]

Small sample size I know, but driving into Sheff town centre (5m) this evening every speed limit change had one of those full size speed limit change signs.
Every single one.
In fact I cannot remember ever having come across a change of speed limit without one of those signs.
My boy, I was driving him in to his swim squad, was flabbergasted when I told him I had got that speeding ticket on a road that the speed limit had changed with no sign advising of that. He thought I was joking. Come to think of it I still think it must be some kind of April Fool, but it can't be because the "offence" was on the 2nd of April not the 1st !

 

[SheffMan]

So you're going from poole lane down ringwood road?

There's a 30mph and camera sign as you enter ringwood road

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.com

I've worked out where you mean now. No, I was going NE up Ringwood Rd (from Mountbatten Roundabout) in the opposite direction.

 

[SheffMan]

This.

You would need to prove that there are no signs currently there. A 2 year old image will just be thrown out.

Funnily enough I have been in touch with the journalist from the Bournemouth Echo who wrote the piece back in 2023. He is expressing interest in this potential story and I advised him to drive the route I did and see if there still is not a 30mph change of speed limit sign.

I just want to reiterate that I am not against all speed cameras, nor am I in favour of drivers who know they are speeding then try to get out of it on a technicality.
I am against speed cameras which are being operated where the speed limit could be reasonably considered to be unclear, particularly to anyone not from the area. And a road (particularly a dual carriageway primary route) that swaps from 40mph to 30mph with no large change of speed limit sign could reasonably be included in the latter definition. That just brings the law, and speed cameras in particular, into disrepute.

 

[SheffMan]

And if you prove there are no signs, they'll just point at the legislation that says if there are no signs on a road with street lights to indicate otherwise, then it's 30mph...

You may well be right, in which I can only repeat what I have just said above : That just brings the law, and speed cameras in particular, into disrepute.

 

[SheffMan]

It doesn't seem you're alone in this

Drivers Still Getting Caught Out by Ringwood Road Speed Limit Change

Drivers using the A348 section of Ringwood Road near the Turbary Retail Park have been caught off guard by a recent change in the speed limit.

bournemouthdaily.co.uk

Well spotted !

This bit is of particular interest :

Why Was the Change Made?

Authorities are yet to provide full clarity on the reasons behind the reduction, but it’s likely aimed at improving road safety in an area with significant pedestrian and retail activity. Dual carriageways, while designed for faster-flowing traffic, can pose risks in busy urban environments, particularly near shopping centres like Turbary Retail Park.

 

[SheffMan]

Allowing for the possibility that the signs have changed or been removed since 2023, there is a pair of 30 limit signs at the end of Canford Way (which seems to be where you came from) as you enter Alderney Roundabout and then no further signs suggesting the limit changes back up to 40 anywhere between there and the speed camera you encountered.

Those signs were 40s in 2021 but 2023 images definitely show them as 30s.

That's weird.
The day before yesterday I defn saw 40mph on Streetview on the exit from Belben Rd onto the A3049. Which reflected the pic on post 4.
Now the Streetview date is still 2023 but it now says 30mph :

https://i.imgur.com/RX1vs5p.png

 

[SheffMan]

Whatever, the whole situation is patently unfair in that locals would be far less likely to get a speeding ticket than non locals who do not know all the up down speed limits.
To that end I am wanting to start a Parliamentary petition asking that all speed cameras must have the speed limit prominently just in front of the camera. Ideally (and also cheaply) the speed limit should be painted on the road just in front of the camera's gradation lines. That way it'd appear on the picture and there could be no argument (either way) that the speed limit was unclear and therefore the ticket was "fair". After all, they say speed cameras are not there to prosecute drivers but to slow them down and I can think of no better way to achieve those two objectives than this idea.
Have the esteemed members of this forum got any ideas as to the best wording for said petition ?

 

[SheffMan]

A parliamentary petition? Jesus christ, let it go.

You've either driven past a 30 sign without seeing it on Canford Way and/or you didn't know that a street lit road without any other signage is a 30mph limit (which is in the highway code and has been legislation for decades, it's not a new thing) - either way, it's on you. Take responsibility for your mistake and stop looking for a reason it's someone else's fault.

Edit - for 36mph in a 30mph zone, they're probably offering a SAC anyway aren't they? If they are, go on it, it seems like it would be useful to you.

Edit 2 - from Dorset Police:

Good chance you'll only have to do a course anyway.

A few points.

1 - I am not the only one who feels the speed limit at that camera is unclear.

2 - I am aware of the street light rule as I did a speed awareness course 6 years ago, the street light rule is useful but not infallible in the real world with cars flying past you and/or a queue behind you.......
It was not coincidental that 2019 speeding ticket (35mph in a 30....) was also when I was on holiday in an unfamiliar location. I have spoke to many friends and colleagues and it's the same story for almost all of the speeding tickets they have had, and none of them are drivers going around speeding and only getting caught because they don't know where the cameras are. They got caught because the speed limit was unclear and unexpected. Exactly like mine.

3 - The bottom line : Bearing the above in mind you appear not to think the speed limit at speed cameras should be made be clear enough that local knowledge makes you less likely to get prosecuted ?

 

[SheffMan]

Here's an interesting point. I have always found the best way to check if it's 40 (not 30) is to check side streets for evidence of (the back of) 40 signs.
But now we have many 20mph limits on side streets that's no longer "a banker" is it........

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit* is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket is if you have local knowledge or you use 80% of your concentration trying to work out said limits which is patently less safe.
Thus we need clarity about what the speed limit is, particularly when there is a speed cameras there handing out tickets that could mean people's jobs are on the line.

* of which there are far more speed restrictions than ever before but also more different limits.
It used to be 30 or 40 or 60 or 70. Now it's 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 !

 

[SheffMan]

Whilst the clearness of the speed limit and fairness of the ticket is in question this all boils down to one thing....were you speeding and has the ticket been properly issued? I think the answer to those questions are unfortunately yes.

This leads on to the second question....do you want to fight the ticket in these circumstances given you don't have a legal provision to rely on in your defence? Fighting this will undoubtedly mean going to court and appealing to the magistrate on fairness grounds rather than legal ones. Not a great position to be in!

Fortunately or unfortunately I have no choice but to accept the ticket as I live in Sheffield, 5 hours e/w from Bournemouth where the case would be heard.
At least that simplifies the issue for me !
But the basic principle, that non locals should not be more likely to get prosecuted than locals, remains. I would like to try and do something about that, however unlikely it may be to happen......

 

[SheffMan]

If it's taking 80% of your concentration to figure out what the speed limit is in a scenario like this, it might be better for everyone if you retired from driving, it sounds like it's a bit too difficult for you.

Driving is exceptionally difficult and the responsibility of the driver (in charge of a lethal weapon effectively) is massive.
I would never say I was the perfect driver by any means but, excepting car park nudges, I have not had an accident since 1991.

 

[SheffMan]

Just a pure cash grab.

My cynicism is rising rapidly about many speed cameras (not all of them to be fair), it really is.
I am pretty certain that, in the old days when a copper would have knabbed you for doing that 36mph in a 30 he would have had a word and, particularly once it became clear I was not from the area, he'd have "let me off" with a warning.
But they would not have had coppers trying to knab people for doing 36mph in a 30 limit on a dual carriageway which had only had 6 "slight" accidents in 6 years anyway !

 

[SheffMan]

If it's taking 80% of your concentration to figure out what the speed limit is in a scenario like this, it might be better for everyone if you retired from driving, it sounds like it's a bit too difficult for you.

No accidents in 34 years would disprove that statment I think.

Incidentally I was just chatting to a mate of mine who does loads of driving for work about 50k a year.
He agrees with what I said above :

Here's an interesting point. I have always found the best way to check if it's 40 (not 30) is to check side streets for evidence of (the back of) 40 signs.
But now we have many 20mph limits on side streets that's no longer "a banker" is it........

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit* is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket if one has local knowledge or you use 80% of your concentration trying to work out said limits which is patently less safe.
Thus we need clarity about what the speed limit is, particularly when there is a speed cameras there handing out tickets that could mean people's jobs are on the line.

* of which there are far more speed restrictions than ever before but also more different limits.
It used to be 30 or 40 or 60 or 70. Now it's 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 !

He also thinks more clarity of speed limits at speed camera sites is a very good idea and was perplexed anyone should not want that.

 

[SheffMan]

If he's doing 50k a year and also finds understanding speed limits difficult to the point it's taking 80% of his concentration, it sounds like he could probably do with some refresher lessons too, it's not that difficult.

If people can't keep track of what speed limit they're in to the point they feel like they need extra signs right next to the cameras to not get caught, the issue isn't really the cameras or the signs, it's their own lack of competence.

I didn't say he thinks it takes 80% of ones concentration, the bit I highlighted, whish he very much agreed with, said :

Basically the whole situation with trying to work out the speed limit is getting so complicated that one can only guarantee not getting a speeding ticket if one has local knowledge

TBH I do not know why we are arguing the point, it is obvious.

 

[SheffMan]

Surely speed limits are signposted, and if they're not then you apply the logic stated in the highway code.

Essentially, if you're unsure and you're not in a built up residential area then it's going to be 30.

To a point I would agree, but in the real world when you have a queue of cars up your backside it's not quite as easy as that is it ? Ironically on most "motoring" forums there are people very disparaging of people driving too slowly as they see it ! I don't think they'd be too happy about everyone doing 30mph whenever there's streetlights unless they are 100% sure it's 40.....
But in actual fact, with the new 20mph limit, that advice (streetlights = 30mph unless sign posted higher than that) is now wrong anyway. And that new 20mph limit also means one can no longer confirm the main road you are on is a 40mph by looking down a side street and seeing the rear of the 30mph signs.

My essential point is that speed limits are becoming more and more complicated (which is particularly worrying when speed cameras are becoming more and more common), surely we can all agree on that one ? ! ?