I think it is becoming more and more difficult to be certain what the speed limit as at all times, but you don't.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then.
Challenging a speed camera ticket due to no "change of speed" sign
- Thread starter SheffMan
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We'll just have to agree to disagree then.
What about people who do not have a car that does that, or a Smart phone for that matter. Why should ones likelihood of getting prosecuted be dependent on which technology one has ? That's patently unjust !
As for the speed camera signs if they had them only in the immediate vicinity of speed cameras and they had the speed limit in force at that location then yes that'd be a step in the right direction. But in reality they have them where there are no speed cameras (certainly round where we live), and so many of them that one stops even noticing them, as we all know.
I just want to clarify again that I am not against all speed cameras, I am only anti speed cameras if the speed limit is unclear in the area, something easily rectified if the "powers that be" actually had the will to do that.
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What do you mean ?
How could that post possibly be defined as trolling ?
To be honest I have already agreed to take an awareness course.
Possibly hard though it may be for some to understand, I'd rather go to a face to face one, I find those Online things a PITA (and the chances of me having 2 or 3 hours of uninterrupted time on the lap top at home is minimal). But the letter says if I want that option I have to travel down to Dorset ! Two points about that :
1 - Again that's unfair on non locals, who are not only more likely to get done by that camera but then (effectively) do not get the option of a live course.
2 - When I had to do my first awareness course (six years ago) the offence was in Lincoln, but I could pick anywhere to do the coure (I actually did it in Rotherham). Has this changed recently ?
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I have done an FOI as to how many tickets are issued from that camera, I await the results with interest.
I would agree for the first few months, maybe even the first year ? Not so sure after 2 years.
I don't agree with you at all.
I know pretty much all the speed limits in Sheffield.
You seem to be repeating the argument that "competent drivers" always know what the speed limit is. Well judging by the number of speeding offences, and the proportion of drivers who have had at least one speeding ticket, then that implies that the great majority of drivers are "incompetent". So where are you placing the bar as to competency ?
Working out the speed limit is particularly difficult on urban primary routes (40 to 30 to 40 etc), and the argument that "if there are streetlights (but no other signs)" it's 'obviously 30mph' is no longer the case at all. Just in case anyone did not read this on the other current speed camera thread this is very interesting and makes a lot of sense :
The streetlights/no streetlights thing was a very elegant and simple solution to enable the 30 limit to be instituted in 1934, when many thousands of new signs would be needed to mark boundaries and waiting for them all to be erected would take too long. It also enabled the idea that a competent motorist could look around and determine the limit from their surroundings, which is admirable - both the law and the motorist are aided if it's possible to work out the correct speed limit no matter where you are. But that was all predicated on there being two possible states for a road (lit/not lit) and two possible limits (30/none).
When local limits came along that could override those defaults, they were bolted on to the existing system with as much elegance as could be achieved through the use of repeater signs, maintaining the principle of the competent motorist looking around and working it out. But as time has gone by and speed limits have become more complex the whole idea has been stretched to breaking point.
We are now in a situation where we already have several developments that mean a competent driver can't really rely on reading their surroundings at any given moment. There's the 20/30 disparity between Wales and the rest of the UK, but before that we had the change of rules around repeaters that reduced the requirement to one somewhere within the limit rather than enough to make them visible throughout. Many years back Scotland decided that the lights = 30 rule did not apply on classified roads, so there you need to know whether you're on an A or B road before evaluating the lighting levels and calculating the limit. And before even that the decision was taken to exempt motorways from the rule about lighting, so you also have to know whether or not you're on a motorway.
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Those signs are no where near the camera site, but this is pointless anyway, classic example of someone arguing for the sake of it, tell you what, we'll just agree to disagree.They should do, yes. Ascertaining what the speed limit is, is a very basic part of driving competence.
It certainly does imply that, yes. That and/or that people simply don't care - many will get tickets from not caring what the limit is, rather than an inability to understand what it is. Everyone knows the limit on a motorway is 70mph for a regular car but plenty will whistle along at 90mph as a choice and some will get caught doing it.
Well, driving past this and thinking it means you're in a 40mph limit is not within the realms of what I would call 'competent', if that helps.
It isn't really, not for competent drivers, they put up signs and stuff to help.
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This is rubbish, you must be the only person that thinks the speed limit is obvious in all scenarios. What with the advent of variable limits it isn't even "obvious at all times" on the motorway anymore.
I suspect you are just arguing for the sake of it but just to check, have you read this ? It makes total sense to me and if you have read it I cannot see how you can have written what you have :
The streetlights/no streetlights thing was a very elegant and simple solution to enable the 30 limit to be instituted in 1934, when many thousands of new signs would be needed to mark boundaries and waiting for them all to be erected would take too long. It also enabled the idea that a competent motorist could look around and determine the limit from their surroundings, which is admirable - both the law and the motorist are aided if it's possible to work out the correct speed limit no matter where you are. But that was all predicated on there being two possible states for a road (lit/not lit) and two possible limits (30/none).
When local limits came along that could override those defaults, they were bolted on to the existing system with as much elegance as could be achieved through the use of repeater signs, maintaining the principle of the competent motorist looking around and working it out. But as time has gone by and speed limits have become more complex the whole idea has been stretched to breaking point.
We are now in a situation where we already have several developments that mean a competent driver can't really rely on reading their surroundings at any given moment. There's the 20/30 disparity between Wales and the rest of the UK, but before that we had the change of rules around repeaters that reduced the requirement to one somewhere within the limit rather than enough to make them visible throughout. Many years back Scotland decided that the lights = 30 rule did not apply on classified roads, so there you need to know whether you're on an A or B road before evaluating the lighting levels and calculating the limit. And before even that the decision was taken to exempt motorways from the rule about lighting, so you also have to know whether or not you're on a motorway.
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Bearing in mind the great majority of drivers have had speeding tickets then you are implying the great majority of drivers (most of them never having had a serious accident) should not be on the road, which is a ludicrous comment.
In addition you seem you have missed this :
Drivers Still Getting Caught Out by Ringwood Road Speed Limit Change
Drivers using the A348 section of Ringwood Road near the Turbary Retail Park have been caught off guard by a recent change in the speed limit.
bournemouthdaily.co.uk
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I agree with this. We were lost at the time and must have missed that 30 sign at the approach to the roundabout.
But the point is it should not be "vaguely" anything, particularly if there is a speed camera there !
Your comment basically implied that anyone who gets a speeding ticket because they do not know what the speed limit is at that point (or have forgotten because they have been distracted) does not deserve to have a driving licence.
Tell me, what about people who deliberately speed (and therefore, one assumes, know what the speed limit is but flout it anyway) but accidentally get caught by speed cameras, do they deserve to have a driving licence ?
Finally, which group would you have more sympathy with when they get a speeding ticket : deliberate speeders who accidentally get caught, or accidental speeders (only just over the soddin' limit at that) who accidentally get caught ?
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Rubbish. The rule that "it's 30 if there are street lights" was only "clear" when (as the earlier quote stated) there :It's not vague at all it's clearly 30
1 - Weren't as many streetlights
2 - There were only two limits 30 and no limit
Where did you get that stat from ? I cannot remember when I last talked to a driver who has never had a speeding ticket.
Your comments must equally apply to everyone in a similar situation, who (apart from the deliberate speeders who "accidentally get caught") would be pretty much all those who get speeding tickets.
On the subject of which I would like an answer to my question :
Tell me, what about people who deliberately speed (and therefore, one assumes, know what the speed limit is but flout it anyway) but accidentally get caught by speed cameras, do they deserve to have a driving licence ?
We were lost in Bournemouth for Gawd's sake and the thing about signs (other than speed limit signs which all drivers are on the look out for) is the more you put up the less people see them.He's been driving for 34 years though, you'd expect he'd know this by now.
Perhaps it is an eyesight thing.
This is all argumentative cobblers anyway, we all know it is getting increasingly difficult to be certain of the speed limits at all points on one's journey, particularly in an area one is not familiar with. To argue otherwise is, well, just arguing for the sake of it.
The only other thing is that limit (on a primary route dual carriageway for Pete's sake....) was never needed anyway, as the Crash map stats prove. I would love to know the justification for it. Most drivers, certainly sub consciously (i.e. what comes to the fore when ones attention is distracted), would assume it was 40mph.
Stop muddying the waters. The speed limit was dropped in 2023 which is what we are talking about. If people were getting caught by a speed camera there when it was 40 I'd have had no sympathy for them, particularly as they would have actually been doing probably 45+ to get a ticket, possibly indicating nearly 50.
This is an incredible post, I literally cannot believe it (assuming you aren't trolling of course).
You are saying that anyone who accidentally gets caught marginally speeding because they are unsure what the speed limit is "does not deserve to have a licence", but you "do not have a problem with" drivers who are deliberately speeding.
As I was walking through Hillsborough this morning (on a SC street through a shopping area.....) some cretin in a Golf GTi with an anti socially loud exhaust came wazzing through doing at least 45, possibly even 50mph. I assume he "could see the speed limit signs" (not that there actually are any of course as it really is, quite obviously, 30mph....) so I take it you have no problem with him having a licence ?
Well I do, it ****** me off big time that I got a speeding ticket for accidentally doing 36mph (on a primary route DC ! ) and cretins like him are getting away with driving like that. It's all wrong.
No, you are muddying the waters and you know full well you are. We are talking about the speed limit not the camera. The fact is I would not have got a ticket had the limit been 40mph, which it was until only two years ago.
Just out of interest, do you think that wazzock in the Golf "should have a licence" ? Or are we going to disagree on that as well ? :
As I was walking through Hillsborough this morning (on a SC street through a shopping area.....) some cretin in a Golf GTi with an anti socially loud exhaust came wazzing through doing at least 45, possibly even 50mph. I assume he "could see the speed limit signs" (not that there actually are any of course as it really is, quite obviously, 30mph....) so I take it you have no problem with him having a licence ?
Well I do, it ****** me off big time that I got a speeding ticket for accidentally doing 36mph (on a primary route DC ! ) and cretins like him are getting away with driving like that. It's all wrong.
Now I know you are trolling.
>>it wouldn't surprise me if the Golf was only doing about 35mph but you were confused into thinking it was faster just because it made a loud noise.<<
I am pretty good at judging car's speeds, I would put money on the fact he was doing 45 to 50mph
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