Chinese Grand Prix 2010, Shanghai - Race 4/19

[dannyjo22]

They did get in bed with a major manufacturer, BMW. The difference being BMW thought whatever williams did they could do better alone and poked interference too much into the car design. It seems people would go with williams but wanted too much of a stake within the team.

That spending could become less of an issue with budgets being slowly driven down to more level playing fields. It has too, even Macca could struggle now they have lost Merc money.

 

[FrankJH]

But that is exactly the point - if you want to compete at the front, you need money. By not following McLaren's lead of expanding into non-F1 areas, they were not able to increase their income and effectively got left behind. This in turn has hurt their F1 ambitions.

I would place losing Adrian Newey, losing Mansell, losing Hill, losing Senna in the same category as not expanding their non-F1 activities.

My belief is that the only way they can become a major force again, would be to "get in bed" with a major manufacturer, to gain access to a mega budget. Toyota would've been perfect, but it's all in the past now.

PS. I'm sure that Williams would've been a lot more proud, had they added to their numerous titles, during the last decade.

I wasnt disagreeing with you in the slightest - the only non F1 engineering project Ive ever heard that was done by Williams was the lift in Sir Stirling Moss's house (unfortunately the only reason I heard about it was because of the accident where the lift didnt work proplerly)

McLaren always appeared to be a bigger company - maybe thats a misconception I dont know, but even when Williams was successful they were a pretty small company in comparison

They did get in bed with a major manufacturer, BMW. The difference being BMW thought whatever williams did they could do better alone and poked interference too much into the car design. It seems people would go with williams but wanted too much of a stake within the team.
.

Was there any difference to BMW and later Toyota - surely they were just engine/gearbox suppliers to Williams rather than anything more significant?

 

[englishpremier]

What non automotive area's are McLaren involved in then?

 

[Kenai]

What non automotive area's are McLaren involved in then?

Where did he say they were?

edit - although, just looking out of interest I found this:

Five years ago, all of McLaren’s business was with carmakers. Now, nearly a third is in developing motorized devices for the solar and wind industries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/economy/14revive.html?pagewanted=3&th&emc=th

 

[sunama]

McLaren always appeared to be a bigger company - maybe thats a misconception I dont know, but even when Williams was successful they were a pretty small company in comparison

I like to measure the size/power of an F1 team by their annual F1 budget. When Williams were dominating in 1992/3, I believe their F1 budget was in the region of US$40M. At the same time, McLaren's budget was around US$50M. So, they had similar budgets, albeit with McLaren leading the way. Ferrari, in comparison had a budget of around US$150M+.

Was there any difference to BMW and later Toyota - surely they were just engine/gearbox suppliers to Williams rather than anything more significant?

1 word - money. If you have a big manufacturer backing you up, then you will have more money to spend in other areas. Right now, Williams don't have that, so they have to think about every move they make with regards to how it will effect their finances. In some instances, they may want to develop an idea, but due to financial constraints, they decide to shelve the idea.

Having a big budget or a big manufacturer on your side simply gives you a lot more breathing space.

The difference between BMW and Toyota - Toyota seemed more willing to spend money. While they were in F1, they had the highest budgets ever recorded in F1, despite having little success. Had they had more success, I'm sure that the senior management at Toyota would've been amenable to ratifying even more funds.

My guess is that had Willilams had been with Toyota, they would've had a MUCH higher budget and as a result, would've translated this extra money, into better results. Of course, a big budget does not guarantee success, but it sure does help.

 

[FrankJH]

My guess is that had Willilams had been with Toyota, they would've had a MUCH higher budget and as a result, would've translated this extra money, into better results. Of course, a big budget does not guarantee success, but it sure does help.

Im confused - Williams WAS with Toyota from 2007 - 2009 seasons were they not? that relationship wasnt any different to their BMW one a few years earlier imo, they were both suppliers to Williams with little interference as to how the car was designed/developed

 

[MarcLister]

Im confused - Williams WAS with Toyota from 2007 - 2009 seasons were they not? that relationship wasnt any different to their BMW one a few years earlier imo, they were both suppliers to Williams with little interference as to how the car was designed/developed

I always thought Toyota took more of a back seat with Williams than BMW did. Toyota had their own F1 team and were supplying engines to Williams as a customer. BMW when with Williams didn't have their own team to look after and instead spent much of their time trying to interfere with Williams thinking they knew how to design and run a car and team better than multiple championship winning Williams did.

 

[sunama]

They were supplying engines. But their relationship wasn't as close as it could've been. If they had really got in bed together, there would definitely have been more money available. However, the disadvantage, is that they would've given up some of their autonomy as the manufacturer/sponsor would've demanded greater input in the direction they would've taken.

From what I understand McLaren and Mercedes, really did get in bed together and worked very closely with eachother. To that tune, McLaren were spending a lot of Mercedes money. Outside of F1 as well, the names of Mercedes and McLaren are intertwined with one another. The relationship was very close, almost like a marriage.

I remember when Renault supplied engines to Williams (early 90s), they worked very closely with eachother, so much so that they gave Williams their best, most advanced engines, while other customer teams, didnt get the same engines Williams were using. Honda and McLaren worked in exactly the same way (when McLaren were winning their 5 world titles in a row).

There is a big difference between merely being supplied engines by an engine supplier and really getting into bed with them.

 

[MarcLister]

There is a big difference between merely being supplied engines by an engine supplier and really getting into bed with them.

Customer engines and works engines you mean?

 

[sunama]

Customer engines and works engines you mean?

Yes.

But in this day and age, it goes a little deeper than that. I believe that these days an engine supplier supplies identical engines to all teams (correct me if I'm wrong).

It's more about cash and major manufacturers being prepared to cough up more money if an F1 team owner, wishes to inject some more funds in a particular area. Normally, you would goto your sponsors, cap in hand and ask for more money. However, if you are in bed with a big manufacturer, you are far more likely to get extra funds, to invest in that uber-fantastic-make-me-go-faster gizmo.

Being backed by a major manufacturer
= more cash to spend
= (usually) more success.

I guess Williams value their autonomy and as such don't want to sell out.

 

[MarcLister]

I believe that these days an engine supplier supplies identical engines to all teams (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think its easier from a logistical point of view, and cheaper as well, to have just one version of an engine in manufacture and use. So McLaren, Mercedes and Force India use the same Mercedes engine. Williams and the three new teams use the same Cosworth engine. Red Bull and Renault use the same Renault engine and Ferrari, Toro Rosso and Sauber use the same Ferrari.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2010#Teams_and_drivers

 

[FrankJH]

I guess Williams value their autonomy and as such don't want to sell out.

This is exactly why I always thought the BMW relationship with Williams was exactly the same as the Toyota one a few years later (Im talking from the Willaims point of view here, not what "quality" of engine spec they recieved)

(I stand to be corrected though - its just what I summised, even though at the time BMW didnt have a team to support but Toyota did)



Also remember in some more recent engine deals there is a joint "technology" deal included with some teams - during the budget cut era, obviously it wont include everything and different teams will include /exclude different areas.

 

[Alibaba99]

I wasnt disagreeing with you in the slightest - the only non F1 engineering project Ive ever heard that was done by Williams was the lift in Sir Stirling Moss's house (unfortunately the only reason I heard about it was because of the accident where the lift didnt work proplerly)

Williams were also involved in the Metro 6R4 and the BMW prototype which won at Le Mans in 1999 (using a version of the McLaren F1 engine).

 

[Fanatic]

Race edit is up

http://www.formula1.com/video/

 

[utajoker]

Race edit is up

http://www.formula1.com/video/

took long enough, not as good as previous though, dont think the song was right.

 

[Duke]

Missing the bit crunch sound from the pile up

 

[FrankJH]

Williams were also involved in the Metro 6R4 and the BMW prototype which won at Le Mans in 1999 (using a version of the McLaren F1 engine).

oh really? Thank you for those titbits