Christianity and Creationism - some clarification

elmarko1234 said:
Greater definition required for.

"The issue of beliefs is a sensitive one for many people and this does not mean that there can be no criticism of religion but do think about how you present your arguments".

It's impossible to criticise religion without somebody getting offended, it's also impossible to support human sacrifice, sexism, racism, homophobia without offending me & many other rational people.
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Your initial post was confrontational and the phrasing/terms used were more offensive than necessary to get your point across. By all means continue to debate and criticise religion if that is your wont but as the announcement requests think about how you present your arguments and try to steer clear of inflammatory language. It's about showing a bit of respect and courtesy for other people and their beliefs - you don't have to agree with those beliefs but there's no need to be rude about them.

However let's not take this thread off topic, if you have any queries regarding it then feel free to email me and we can discuss this further.
 
Scrutinize said:
A lot of Christians, especially if you look to the Evangelical/Baptists, would argue that Catholicism isn't actually Christianity.
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That always makes me smile considering the history of Christianity. Without Catholicism I am not sure if Christianity would even exist today tbh.
 
spudbynight said:
What human sacrifice are you talking about?

And, if you want to engage then please stop using the term "cult".
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Well, in the case of Christianity - Jesus.

I apologise, the term "popular cult" would be fairer.

"The word cult in current popular usage usually refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre"

One aspect of a cult is the practice of "mind control".

1. People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations; - The concept of "Hell" (Tick)


Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized; - Gods will (tick)

They receive what seems to be unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group; - Jesus loves you (tick)

They get a new identity based on the group; - Baptism (tick)

They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled. - Sunday schools/Christian schools (half tick)
 
Not all Christians believe in hell and Jesus wasn't a human sacrifice.

And lol subject to entrapment, not in the slightest for most main stream religions.
 
spudbynight said:
What human sacrifice are you talking about?

And, if you want to engage then please stop using the term "cult".
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As an amusing sideline to that I did manage to irritate some JWs by using the term "Christian Myth". I wasn't even trying to upset them either we were just having a conversation about Halloween and I suggested that it was just another example of where Celtic or Pagan myth had been incorporated into Christian myth.
 
spudbynight said:
What human sacrifice are you talking about?

And, if you want to engage then please stop using the term "cult".
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Well as the post is not there I think he is loosely referring to the medical scientific community and the way it obfuscates a real agenda (unproven theories for the purposes of furthering research and science) by seemingly keeping people alive whilst in fact drastically harming them with against all moral or ethical rightness whilst at the same time offering fragile hope to the weak and suffering. I think he is using the word "cult" in the sense that these researchers are so devoted to what they do that they exist in an abnormal world of scientific experimenting stuff and follow a ritual of practice where they all do the same thing almost like a mantra. I believe they call it scientific theory. It is one of those concepts you have to accept with a degree of faith as it makes quite a few a priori assumptions.

One aspect of a cult is the practice of "mind control".

People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations; - The concept of "Med school" (Tick)

Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized; - The diagnosis (tick)

They receive what seems to be unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group; - Labour Government (tick)

They get a new identity based on the group; - They get to add Dr to their name! (tick)

They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled. - Have you met these people ?!?(great big tick)
 
elmarko1234, how do you expect to win over the minds of those who think differently from you if you continue to insult them and their beliefs?

"You're way of thinking is completely irrational and stupid, you are wholehearted wrong and you live your life in a oppressive cult"

"woah, I never thought of it like that!"
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Yeah, that'll work.
 
Glaucus said:
Not all Christians believe in hell and Jesus wasn't a human sacrifice.

And lol subject to entrapment, not in the slightest for most main stream religions.
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John 3:16 - "God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son"

7 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

[this is the atonement, or reconciliation between god and man, jesus paid the price for mans sin with his life blood.]

Lamb of God (Latin: Agnus Dei) is one of the titles given to Jesus in the New Testament and consequently in the Christian tradition. It refers to Jesus' role as a sacrificial lamb atoning for the sins of man in Christian theology, harkening back to ancient Jewish Temple sacrifices in which a lamb was slain during the passover (the "Paschal Lamb", Hebrew: Korban Pesach), the blood was sprinkled on the altar, and the whole of the lamb was eaten. In the original Passover in Egypt, the blood was smeared on the door posts and lintel of each household (Exodus 12:1-28).

Romans 5:8-11:
"8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

"Approximately 1,500 years later, on the 14th day of Nisan, the Passover Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, was sacrificed upon a wooden cross for the sins of all mankind. When the Day of the Lord comes, those who have covered themselves in the blood of the Lamb by accepting Christ will be kept safe while the world pays for their rebellion against God."

Sometimes the sacrifice victim is willing.

The god is appeased, the "wrath" in this instance is all wrapped up and put away.

Romans 5.6-11, Jesus' death was a vicarious atonement

Not according to the bible.

Knowingly giving somebody
 
Nitefly said:
elmarko1234, how do you expect to win over the minds of those who think differently from you if you continue to insult them and their beliefs?



Yeah, that'll work.
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I'm simply judging Christianity by the same standards they judge other religions (pagen, aztec, norse) or even newer groups such as scientology.

It forces cognitive dissonance in religious people, which will either cause them to deny these facts, distort reality or accept the fact they have no valid or justifiable reason to believe the things they do.

Without forcing the cognitive dissonance some people will not question these things, you ask them questions which make them feel uncomfortable.
 
elmarko1234 said:
I'm simply judging Christianity by the same standards they judge other religions (pagen, aztec, norse) or even newer groups such as scientology.

It forces cognitive dissonance in religious people, which will either cause them to deny these facts, distort reality or accept the fact they have no valid or justifiable reason to believe the things they do.

Without forcing the cognitive dissonance some people will not question these things, you ask them questions which make them feel uncomfortable.
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You are not really asking questions, you are just being rude and abusive.
 
elmarko1234 said:
I'm simply judging Christianity by the same standards they judge other religions (pagen, aztec, norse) or even newer groups such as scientology.

It forces cognitive dissonance in religious people, which will either cause them to deny these facts, distort reality or accept the fact they have no valid or justifiable reason to believe the things they do.

Without forcing the cognitive dissonance some people will not question these things, you ask them questions which make them feel uncomfortable.
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Christianity as a religion judges no one it is not a conscious entity.
People who say they are Christians may. Fallable humans and all that.
Attributing the actions of a component of a group onto the whole group is discriminatory and prejudice.
 
elmarko1234 said:
I'm simply judging Christianity by the same standards they judge other religions (pagen, aztec, norse) or even newer groups such as scientology.
.
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Then perhaps you should talk to far more religiuse people, who don't hold such views. There is an entire array of people, with vastly different beliefs.

You are as bad as the type of religiuse people you so detest. Odd that isn't it, and so often the case.
It also shows how you only under stand a tiny fraction of religiuse beliefs and even then get most of it wrong.
But then again it's ok to be utterly intolerant because you aren't religiuse.
 
spudbynight said:
This is where I was going.

No human sacrifice involved if the person who sacrifices themselves is God.
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So what meaning exists if the person who sacrifices themselves is also able to ressurect them-self? - that's nothing more than a parlour trick if no real danger exists.

Even accepting this dodgy metaphor it's still supporting the principle of one persons suffering atoning for another's sins.

The trinity concept opens up just as many illogical cans or worms as the human/son of god version.
 
Glaucus said:
Then perhaps you should talk to far more religiuse people, who don't hold such views. There is an entire array of people, with vastly different beliefs.

You are as bad as the type of religiuse people you so detest. Odd that isn't it, and so often the case.
It also shows how you only under stand a tiny fraction of religiuse beliefs and even then get most of it wrong.
But then again it's ok to be utterly intolerant because you aren't religiuse.
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I've yet to be provided with a logical justifiable reason to believe in anything.

I'm intolerant of racism, sexism, homophobia & paedophilia - some of the primary exports of the religious community.
 
elmarko1234 said:
I'm simply judging Christianity by the same standards they judge other religions (pagen, aztec, norse) or even newer groups such as scientology.

It forces cognitive dissonance in religious people, which will either cause them to deny these facts, distort reality or accept the fact they have no valid or justifiable reason to believe the things they do.

Without forcing the cognitive dissonance some people will not question these things, you ask them questions which make them feel uncomfortable.
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So you wish to convert the minds of 'the ignorant' by taking a stubborn and aggressive attitude? That doesn't seem very sensible to me.

If you wish to educate someone, you should do so politely and with respect.
 
elmarko1234 said:
I've yet to be provided with a logical justifiable reason to believe in anything.

I'm intolerant of racism, sexism, homophobia & paedophilia - some of the primary exports of the religious community.
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Why do you need such prove? Are they forcing you to believe?
Again talk to more religiuse people, that just isn't the case.
You should include yourself in that list.
 
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