Colleague off sick for five weeks. Has Doctors note. Is currently in Ibiza.

Hotwired said:
Such things happen if you get emotional instead of sticking to proper procedure and available facts.

Big companies will have a literal script to follow. Any incompetence by the company and the case will fall in favour of the employee.
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would he likely get his job back then, or a payout?

would be a great atmosphere going back to work somewhere you got fired from!
 
Uther said:
Like ours lol, one person got a positive covid test last week and now 15 people are off for 10 days on ssp...
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My employer will pay full pay for anyone tested positive or needs to self isolate for either household has it, been texted. Unsure about the pinged.

Plus this doesn’t count towards our sickness record.

How do they prove that a household member has tested positive? If need no proof, some could have taken the urine
 
Freakbro said:
I disagree, if the employee is genuinely "going on holiday" whether that is for recouperation from the illness or not and whether they are off sick or not, then they have to follow their normal contractual protocols and apply for holiday leave, which will then be deducted from their holiday entitlement.
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You can't negate employment legislation re: sick leave (or various other matters) with a contract!

You don't have any basis for your disagreement here, again the link you referred to doesn't support what you claimed, it simply outlines that an employee *can* claim those days as sick leave.

As I've pointed out in a previous post, they might want to take days as sick leave if they're financially better off that way - for example, holidays being paid in full and sick leave perhaps being statutory rates or indeed losing holiday allowance beyond statutory.

The government website cites an example too:

https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave
An employee can ask to take their paid holiday for the time they’re off work sick. They might do this if they do not qualify for sick pay, for example. Any rules relating to sick leave will still apply.
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Note the words "can" and "might" - this is a choice the employee is making, not an obligation as you seem to believe.

Here is an employment law solicitor basically explaining that employees can do this too:

https://www.sherrardslaw.com/going-holiday-whilst-off-sick/
Employees going on foreign holidays or visiting relatives abroad whilst on sick leave would feature in most employer’s top 10 annoyance lists! It’s a common phenomenon, and it can understandably irritate employers that an employee is not well enough to work, but is apparently well enough to go on holiday.

But the reality is that there is not a great deal that employers can do. If challenged, it is easy for employees to obtain a letter from their GP or specialist supporting the idea of a break to aid recovery. We are not medical specialists, but looking at the subject objectively, there must be some merit in the idea that a relaxing holiday in the sun and/or with the support of family who live abroad, can assist recovery.
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You can disagree if you like but your disagreement so far is without merit, it's just a denial or misreading of the fact that have been presented.
 
Fubsy said:
To the OP though. How do you know he's doing this?

If social media, then I utterly despair.
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Quite a few years back, when I drove an oil tanker for the most well known oil producers on the planet, I worked with a guy who had a villa in San Pedro, near Marbella, Spain.
If the mood took him, he’d visit his G.P., do an academy award performance of pleading low back pain, (which I’ve heard is the most difficult to disprove), get a medical certificate for a week, hand it in at work, then drive to Gatwick and fly to Malaga.
After a week, I know this as I’d often go with him, he’d phone his G.P. from Spain, and plead for a further week certification, as he was still in pain.
His sister would pick up the certificate and take it to our depot.
This was eons before social media, but he’s not a social media type anyway, and he was too sharp to make the mistake of sending postcards home.
No one had to shoulder extra work while he was chugging San Miguels round his pool, oil got delivered still, in fact some guys got some welcome overtime.
Of course, a lot on here would view him as Public Enemy # 1, but that was life in the seventies.
I’m not saying that it’s right, it’s just the way it was.
 
People have and always will do it and get away with it if they aren't stupid. (Don't go the pub over the road, post on IG or rescue people from sharks on the beach and pose in the press etc.)

It comes down to morals, respect and pride whether you think it's "right" or not.

I could never do it. It has a negative effect on my colleagues, who I have a passing empathy for regardless how annoying they can be. It would drive me mad worrying about being caught. I have enough AL to keep me happy and productive throughout the year with options to buy more if needed.
 
Jean-F said:
Quite a few years back, when I drove an oil tanker for the most well known oil producers on the planet, I worked with a guy who had a villa in San Pedro, near Marbella, Spain.
If the mood took him, he’d visit his G.P., do an academy award performance of pleading low back pain, (which I’ve heard is the most difficult to disprove), get a medical certificate for a week, hand it in at work, then drive to Gatwick and fly to Malaga.
After a week, I know this as I’d often go with him, he’d phone his G.P. from Spain, and plead for a further week certification, as he was still in pain.
His sister would pick up the certificate and take it to our depot.
This was eons before social media, but he’s not a social media type anyway, and he was too sharp to make the mistake of sending postcards home.
No one had to shoulder extra work while he was chugging San Miguels round his pool, oil got delivered still, in fact some guys got some welcome overtime.
Of course, a lot on here would view him as Public Enemy # 1, but that was life in the seventies.
I’m not saying that it’s right, it’s just the way it was.
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It's not always the case that pulling a sickie has no effect on your colleagues though.
 
LOL, just saw overclockers on youtube, haven't really watched these before but last week's update reminded me of this thread:

 
Freakbro said:
I disagree, if the employee is genuinely "going on holiday" whether that is for recouperation from the illness or not and whether they are off sick or not, then they have to follow their normal contractual protocols and apply for holiday leave, which will then be deducted from their holiday entitlement.

But that relies on employee honesty of course, the way they can try and get around this is by just not calling it "a holiday" ...... and not posting pictures on social media from ibiza.... :p
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Pretty much no serious work place will let you take holiday to cover sickness.

It would be against policy
 
Jean-F said:
Quite a few years back, when I drove an oil tanker for the most well known oil producers on the planet, I worked with a guy who had a villa in San Pedro, near Marbella, Spain.
If the mood took him, he’d visit his G.P., do an academy award performance of pleading low back pain, (which I’ve heard is the most difficult to disprove), get a medical certificate for a week, hand it in at work, then drive to Gatwick and fly to Malaga.
After a week, I know this as I’d often go with him, he’d phone his G.P. from Spain, and plead for a further week certification, as he was still in pain.
His sister would pick up the certificate and take it to our depot.
This was eons before social media, but he’s not a social media type anyway, and he was too sharp to make the mistake of sending postcards home.
No one had to shoulder extra work while he was chugging San Miguels round his pool, oil got delivered still, in fact some guys got some welcome overtime.
Of course, a lot on here would view him as Public Enemy # 1, but that was life in the seventies.
I’m not saying that it’s right, it’s just the way it was.
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It took me so long to realise you meant thw lorry tanker not the ship :D
 
PC777 said:
As someone who is self employed, taking 5 weeks off sick and spending 2 of them in Ibiza seems to be unfathomably indulgent. Nice deal if you can get it, but it seems the OP and his colleagues are the ones paying for it.

Ibiza has quiet parts, but it's known as party island for good reason. Spending time there during peak party season no less. It isn't likely to be that quiet or recuperative - the process of flying there alone would too stressful for many legitimate health issues.

However, there may well be truly legitimate reasons for this - who knows what this person off sick is really going through, Ibiza could be a cherished location they feel safe in, familiarity with a particular hotel, etc. Or they might just be milking a soft system.

Tough position for you and your colleagues to be in, because even with a legit reason, they will likely be some resentment when they return.

Best bet is to give them the benefit of the doubt initially, if they've scammed anyone it will likely come to light sooner or later.
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Having just been to Majorca and Magaluf (briefly), I can tell you that the clubs are not open. You can go to bars, but Spain is not allowing clubs to be opened and you can't dance etc. So I don't think the party island is a part island yet.
 
dowie said:
You can't negate employment legislation re: sick leave (or various other matters) with a contract!
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I wasn't aware I was!

You don't have any basis for your disagreement here, again the link you referred to doesn't support what you claimed, it simply outlines that an employee *can* claim those days as sick leave.
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Links I probably should have put up last time

https://croner.co.uk/resources/leave-absence/sick-leave/

Going on holiday while on sick leave

Although this sounds like it’ll break your company protocol, if your employee is ill, but physically able to take annual leave, then they can do so.

However, they’ll have to request this from you in their normal process. And you don’t have to agree.
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https://landaulaw.co.uk/holidays/

Am I entitled to go on holiday whilst I’m on sick leave?

Yes, you can, but you do need to check with your employer first in the same way as you do when you are not on sick leave, and your employer can refuse in the same way.
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Which is just what I said. And both of those say have to and need to ie: *must* not *can*

As I've pointed out in a previous post, they might want to take days as sick leave if they're financially better off that way - for example, holidays being paid in full and sick leave perhaps being statutory rates or indeed losing holiday allowance beyond statutory.

The government website cites an example too:

https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave


Note the words "can" and "might" - this is a choice the employee is making, not an obligation as you seem to believe.
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Absolutely, I'm not disputing that exact example [to cover for financial loss] and I agree with what you are saying, but this situation isn't exactly the same as that. This is someone actually going on holiday whilst on sick leave and with all the links put up so far I can't find one that answers this exact question. But as always with law, there seems to be a lot of interpretation, even by solicitors, as on one site you will find things like

An initial point to remember – there is only ever one reason why an employee is away from work. That could be sickness, holiday, maternity, paternity, adoption, bereavement leave etc. While the reasons may vary, there is only ever one in place at any given time. What the reason is dictates the employees’ rights at the time and these are generally down to agreement between the parties or compliance with the rules and regulations.
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and on another

An employee who is off sick but who goes on holiday (and it is irrelevant whether requested before the sick leave or during it) is simply to be treated as off work for both sickness and holiday at the same time.
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I've been part of a panel who dismissed an employee who went on holiday whilst off sick, but again, it's not exactly the same as this situation as this one.


Here is an employment law solicitor basically explaining that employees can do this too:

https://www.sherrardslaw.com/going-holiday-whilst-off-sick/


You can disagree if you like but your disagreement so far is without merit, it's just a denial or misreading of the fact that have been presented.
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I had read that blog already and it's not exactly one you would pin your flag to, as it's even written in a very speculative and 'in their opinion' way. It also seems to have the same sentiment of my first post, that it relies on the employees honesty but if they aren't honest then there's not a lot you can do about it.

We are not medical specialists, but looking at the subject objectively, there must be some merit in the idea that a relaxing holiday in the sun and/or with the support of family who live abroad, can assist recovery.

Of course there are exceptions to this, for example an employee recovering from a physical injury partaking in a sporting or otherwise active holiday. But even then, what exactly can the employer do? Employees, in concert with their GP, can create stories that are convincing, at least superficially. As non-medical experts, who are we to say that going on a walking holiday would not aid an employee’s recovery from a broken leg? And even if sceptical, would the employer really want to go down the route of obtaining a medical reports that backs up the suggestion that the employee was in fact fit to return to work? These things are subjective, and proving that position definitively is well-nigh impossible.
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That blog is less about what the law states and more about what you can actually prove or not. But anyway, we're veering off the topic a bit about whether the employee can arbitrarily decide to go on holiday whilst on sick and not use their holiday entitlement.


Tefal said:
Pretty much no serious work place will let you take holiday to cover sickness.

It would be against policy
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There's a lot of not very serious work places then :p

It's even in the Govt legislation above that Holiday entitlement can be used to cover sickness!
 
OspreyO said:
It's not always the case that pulling a sickie has no effect on your colleagues though.
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Granted 1000%, but in the example I mentioned, none of the other drivers suffered by the absence of my friend.
This still doesn’t make what he did right though.

Tefal said:
It took me so long to realise you meant the lorry tanker not the ship :D
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I’m good Tefal, but I’m not that good.
The vehicle hasn’t been built that I can’t drive, but ships, mmm, not so much.
 
Freakbro said:
Links I probably should have put up last time

https://croner.co.uk/resources/leave-absence/sick-leave/
Although this sounds like it’ll break your company protocol, if your employee is ill, but physically able to take annual leave, then they can do so.

However, they’ll have to request this from you in their normal process. And you don’t have to agree.
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Again as with the ACAS link that doesn't support your claim - it talks about how they "can" take "annual leave" - i.e. they can request it. It also outlines that the employer doesn't have to agree.

However not agreeing to annual leave doesn't negate the employee going overseas whiles signed off sick.

So far this link is the only one out of several that could support you - however previous links included both the government website and ACAS and another law firm.
https://landaulaw.co.uk/holidays/

You say the other law firm isn't one to pin your flag to but then you're ignoring multiple sources including one you've already cited and cherry-picking a single firm's website here when it is pretty clear from the rest that this is something the employee can request and that there isn't anything in law to prevent overseas travel when on sick leave. Taking holiday = requesting paid time off.
 
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