Computers in cars....

Soldato
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Entai, what you totally fail to take into account in that as fantastic as the human brain is humans make mistakes and that's where systems like ABS can prevent an accident. In an ideal world people would be perfect and there would be no need for these safety systems or insurance (ignoring thiefing scum) because no-one would ever crash. There would also only be about 5 cars in the whole of the UK !!!

In the mean time I would much rather the person behind me has ABS so that when I execute an emergency stop (say if a child runs out in front of me) perfectly without the use of ABS and they panic and jab on the middle pedal they have a better chance on not slamming into the back of me.


Michey_D, I have been in a passenger in my Uncles car when the cruise control jammed on at 70mph and it scared the poo outta me. I still maintain that ABS and other such systems prevent a lot more accidents than their potential failure could ever cause.
 
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The electronic stuff I wouldn't trust is electronic steering (read no mechanical connection)or brakes (if they ever go that way) because if one of those goes.....
 
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Originally posted by Del Lardo

In the mean time I would much rather the person behind me has ABS so that when I execute an emergency stop (say if a child runs out in front of me) perfectly without the use of ABS and they panic and jab on the middle pedal they have a better chance on not slamming into the back of me.

But what you don't take into account in the above situation, is that you corectly would stop without any problem, having anticipated someone may runout and so you would be driving at a speed whereby you could stop easily without doing a full emergency stop.
However the person behind you then jams on their brakes and will still go into the back of you no matter what their car is equpped with.
This is for two reasons,
number one, they are driving too close to you because they have a car with ABS and think they can stop quicker than you, whereas the truth of the matter is any car will take longer to stop when ABS is activated than when it isn't.
Number two, the person behind you will just freeze when applying their brakes and then will hit you anyway, with or with out ABS, because no-one has taught them that they can still steer around an object when they have the brakes applied.

So ABS will be of no benefit to you or them in that scenario, so why have it fitted at all.
 
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Originally posted by nicRob
The electronic stuff I wouldn't trust is electronic steering (read no mechanical connection)or brakes (if they ever go that way) because if one of those goes.....

They have already gone that way.

ABS is already electronically independent if the electronics fail you will have no brakes there is no mechanical link between the brake pedal, and the calipers on the wheels, on any modern car with ABS, it all goes through the pump, if that stops working YOU HAVE NO BRAKES.
 
Soldato
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Originally posted by Entai
They have already gone that way.

ABS is already electronically independent if the electronics fail you will have no brakes there is no mechanical link between the brake pedal, and the calipers on the wheels, on any modern car with ABS, it all goes through the pump, if that stops working YOU HAVE NO BRAKES.
I believe your wrong there. If your ABS fails then dont you just have normal brakes that you have to pump?

You wont have ABS but your still have brakes.
 
Caporegime
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Originally posted by L0rdMike
I believe your wrong there. If your ABS fails then dont you just have normal brakes that you have to pump?

You wont have ABS but your still have brakes.

Not on any car I have worked on recently, if the pump fails then you have no brakes at all, the pump is active even on normal braking (without the ABS itself being active) but it is just not modulating the pressure. There is no physical link between the pedal and the calipers on modern (read last ten years) ABS systems.

An even worse situation is all these stability control systems that can put the brakes on even when you don't press the pedal at all, they are all completely independent of the brake pedal the brakes can go on without you pressing the pedal and worse still the brakes can come off even when you are presing very hard on the pedal, it all depends on what the computer wants to do, not the driver, and in my book, that is just plain wrong.
The driver should be in total control of the vehicle and all it's systems at all times.
 
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Originally posted by Jono
I'm kinda in some agreement, driver aids lead people (some people) to believe that whatever they do they will be safe - which is why people decided to sit 3" from your rear bumper because they have ABS....they drive at 3000 mph in snow/ice because they have traction control....and they try to park in spaces half the size of their car because they have PAS.
have to strongly disagree with all of the above.
the drivers that do everything you describe do so cos theyre simply bad drivers,exactly what driver aids theyre car is fitted with is irrelevant to them.
for example,people tailgate because theyre impatient,not because they have the fact their car is fitted with ABS floating around their concious mind
Originally posted by Mickey_D
And you KNOW it'll happen. It's called Murphy's Law!!

Computer control is all very well, but only if it can be COMPLETELY, 100% reliable in 100% of the situations you will ever come across in a car.
so even if it can save a life or prevent an accident 99 times/100 we shouldnt have these devices fitted until they're 100% fail safe?
Originally posted by Entai
There is a very simple answer to all of this, if people were taught to drive properly in the first place none of these gadgets would be needed.
i have to say i dont agree with the above at all.
training is all well and good but the fact is the majority of people currently driving on our roads just dont have the inherant skills and aptitudes to make your post effective.
train them to a higher standard and things will improve for sure,but i severely doubt they'll improve enough to a level where such safety devices will be surplus to requirements.

if you put 10 people through a training course they all come out with different levels of skill,based on interest,perception and their latent abilities.

the fact is the vast majority of motorists arent enthusiasts and in the most part arent interested in cars or driving or its techniques.
 
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Originally posted by The_Dark_Side

i have to say i dont agree with the above at all.
training is all well and good but the fact is the majority of people currently driving on our roads just dont have the inherant skills and aptitudes to make your post effective.
train them to a higher standard and things will improve for sure,but i severely doubt they'll improve enough to a level where such safety devices will be surplus to requirements.

if you put 10 people through a training course they all come out with different levels of skill,based on interest,perception and their latent abilities.

the fact is the vast majority of motorists arent enthusiasts and in the most part arent interested in cars or driving or its techniques.

But that training is also applicable to the use of these features we are talking about, they need to be trained to use ABS correctly and to use traction control etc correctly, if they don't have the interest in cars to want to learn how to use these things correctly, then don't fit them to vehicles in the first place.
People who do have an interest will learn how to drive correctly and those that don't will have accidents and not be around for the rest of us to worry about.

As for people not having the necessary skills and apptitude just keep training, them untill they do.
 
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Originally posted by Entai
But that training is also applicable to the use of these features we are talking about, they need to be trained to use ABS correctly and to use traction control etc correctly, if they don't have the interest in cars to want to learn how to use these things correctly, then don't fit them to vehicles in the first place.
People who do have an interest will learn how to drive correctly and those that don't will have accidents and not be around for the rest of us to worry about.

As for people not having the necessary skills and apptitude just keep training, them untill they do.
ive mentioned this more than once before,there are certain skills your equipped with from birth.
they cant be taught,improved yes but whos to say imrpoved to a satisfactory level?
co-ordination,spatial awareness to name but 2 of them.
no amount of training will get around this basic fact.
all the techniques youve described work just as well,but only when theres a driver like you sitting in the hot seat.
we are the motoring minority.
the bulk of people either lack enough of the skills above to facilitate the removal of all the aforementioned safety devices,or theyre simply not interested.
how many people can remember calculus from their school exams for example.
for most people their brain prioritises things and chooses to forget things it doesnt expect to use again.
christ i know drivers that have forgotten what certain signs mean,you really think that more training is going to program into them how and when to cadence brake?
i saw a guy driving the wrong way around a roundabout last month,if we cant instill the basics then we have no chance of instilling the more complex stuff.
if you can learn,pass then forget something as basic as sections of the highway code them im sorry but i have to say advanced driving techniques like that will fall straight out their ears the moment they leave the test centre with a pass certificate in their hand.
while all the electronics may irk the very experienced driver,they're necessary for the rest.
 
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Need two cars really, in an ideal world everyone would hack around in Diesel VW Golfs - they're so boring you can practically drive them asleep, don't depreciate much and do a million and six miles to the gallon.

And then a 7 litre V8 engined Ultima (with aircon) for the weekends :)
 
Soldato
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Originally posted by alextgreen
Need two cars really, in an ideal world everyone would hack around in Diesel VW Golfs - they're so boring you can practically drive them asleep, don't depreciate much and do a million and six miles to the gallon.

And then a 7 litre V8 engined Ultima (with aircon) for the weekends :)
^^^
the man has good ideas
 
Caporegime
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I agree with all that but I am not sure you actually see what I was trying to say, I shall try to put it another way.

If the average joe public comes across a situation whereby they need to emergency brake, then he/she/it will just stand on the middle pedal, lock their arms straight, shut their eyes and pray, they certainly will not realise that with ABS they can brake and steer around the hazard at the same time.
So why are we fitting ABS expressly for the use of said muppet, as any reasonably educated driver will know to steer as well, (although knowing what to do and putting it into practise when the needs arise, are completely different, ) and any advanced driver will not have got themselves in to said situation in the first place.
The later two groups are few and far between, they possibly make up less than 20-25% of the motoring population. So why build cars with ABS when 75% or more of the drivers cannot and would not know how to use it properly.

ive mentioned this more than once before,there are certain skills your equipped with from birth. they cant be taught, improved yes but whos to say imrpoved to a satisfactory level?

Any increase in skill level is a benefit to themselves and the rest of us. I believe all drivers should be made to sit an advanced level test as a matter of course after passingtheir normal driving test.
 
Soldato
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Originally posted by Entai
But what you don't take into account in the above situation, is that you corectly would stop without any problem, having anticipated someone may runout and so you would be driving at a speed whereby you could stop easily without doing a full emergency stop.
However the person behind you then jams on their brakes and will still go into the back of you no matter what their car is equpped with.
This is for two reasons,
number one, they are driving too close to you because they have a car with ABS and think they can stop quicker than you, whereas the truth of the matter is any car will take longer to stop when ABS is activated than when it isn't.
Number two, the person behind you will just freeze when applying their brakes and then will hit you anyway, with or with out ABS, because no-one has taught them that they can still steer around an object when they have the brakes applied.

So ABS will be of no benefit to you or them in that scenario, so why have it fitted at all.


I've read your posts about your job so I am more than willing to acknogledge that you know more about ABS systems than I do but you completely fail to talk about situation 3 which I would have thought would be the most likely one.


Without ABS
Driver behind panics, jams on the breaks as hard as they can locking the wheels removing their ability to steer and increasing their breaking distance. Rear end shunt.

With ABS
Driver behind panics, jams on the breaks as hard as they can, ABS kicks in preventing the wheels from locking and allowing them to steer (if they have somewhere else to go). Car pulls up 1" from my bumper (I realise that there could still be a rear end shunt but the chances are reduced).

Cadence breaking
The driver behind me is as fantastic as me and does not panic. Pulls up a safe distance behind me only for the fool behind them to drive into them :rolleyes:
 
Soldato
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Originally posted by Entai
ABS is there for the benefit of most people because there are some situations where you will find yourself needing to do an emergency stop. My car does'nt have ABS and I've locked the wheels once when a dog shot out from a side street. I missed the dog by about a foot or so and everything was ok thankfully.
 
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Soldato
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Originally posted by Entai
If the average joe public comes across a situation whereby they need to emergency brake, then he/she/it will just stand on the middle pedal, lock their arms straight, shut their eyes and pray, they certainly will not realise that with ABS they can brake and steer around the hazard at the same time.
So why are we fitting ABS expressly for the use of said muppet, as any reasonably educated driver will know to steer as well, (although knowing what to do and putting it into practise when the needs arise, are completely different, ) and any advanced driver will not have got themselves in to said situation in the first place.
The later two groups are few and far between, they possibly make up less than 20-25% of the motoring population. So why build cars with ABS when 75% or more of the drivers cannot and would not know how to use it properly.
for example its instinctive to slam the brake pedal through the floor.
this is the correct technique for ABS.
to cadence takes practice.
more instruction should be compulsory thats for sure.
your original point was these devices wouldnt be needed if people were trained properly.
its just not possible to drag maureen from driving school,and others like her, upto a standard like that without an unfeasible level of training.
assuming its even possible at all.
this alone warrants all the safety systems we all know.
mu opinion is if you dont like them switch them off where possible.
Originally posted by Entai
Any increase in skill level is a benefit to themselves and the rest of us. I believe all drivers should be made to sit an advanced level test as a matter of course after passingtheir normal driving test.
your right any increase in skill is beneficial to everyone.
however an increase doesnt mean its enough so they can do without all the driver aids we have come to know.
it merely means they would be better informed and trained than they were before.
 
Caporegime
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Originally posted by Mr Joshua
Do you mean that an advanced driver will never have to perform an emergency stop or brake causing an ABS system to kick in (or am I missing somthing from an earlier post)?

Yes that is what I mean. An advanced driver will always expect the unexpected and be alert to all that is going on around him. He will be anticipating anything that may happen and have contingencies to deal with whatever may happen.
I personally have never had to perform an emergency stop ever, apart from the one on my driving test. I have on several occasions had to stop slightly sharper than normal, when stoping for people running out from between parked cars and walking out across a pedestrian crossing without looking if the way is clear first, but nowhere near an emergency stop situation.

In the above situations I was assuming someone would do what they eventually did, and was prepared by having already slowed down and selected a lower gear ready to stop fast if needed.


Also read this post by [TW] Fox


I have to say I fully agree. I'm especially concerned with what Sin_Chase said - he's used his 'emergency brake' 'plenty of times'. That is quite worrying - surely emergency brake is only as a last resort, and is something good observation should allow you to avoid.

I have triggered my ABS properly three times since I got an ABS equipped car when I got the Xantia. The first time was braking very harshly from 70mph when a car pulled out without warning on the A38. The second time was on a patch of ice on my drive, and the third time was when I deliberately engaged it on the Mondeo to test it was working.

Two of those times were unavoidable - the test and the ice. The first one, whilst it wasn't my fault, could have been avoided had I thought 'Hang on, rusty Fiesta, guys in baseball caps, could be a bit unpredictable here..' - something I learnt when I did my IAM.

Observation and anticpiation and driving within you limits = win.


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Caporegime
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Originally posted by The_Dark_Side
for example its instinctive to slam the brake pedal through the floor.
this is the correct technique for ABS.
to cadence takes practice.
more instruction should be compulsory thats for sure.
your original point was these devices wouldnt be needed if people were trained properly.
its just not possible to drag maureen from driving school,and others like her, upto a standard like that without an unfeasible level of training.
assuming its even possible at all.
this alone warrants all the safety systems we all know.
mu opinion is if you dont like them switch them off where possible.

your right any increase in skill is beneficial to everyone.
however an increase doesnt mean its enough so they can do without all the driver aids we have come to know.
it merely means they would be better informed and trained than they were before.

But the whole point is that given two identical cars in identical situations the car with ABS will take longer to stop that the car without ABS, even if the wheels lock on the car without ,this is a proven fact and is indisputable.

So unless you teach people to steer while braking which is very hard to come to terms with and takes an awful lot of practice to master, cars with ABS are more dangerous than cars without, as they take longer to stop.
 
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Originally posted by Entai
Yes that is what I mean. An advanced driver will always expect the unexpected and be alert to all that is going on around him. He will be anticipating anything that may happen and have contingencies to deal with whatever may happen.

My father is a member of IAM and in over 40 years of driving has not had a single fault accident. How could he have anticipated a 6 foot concrete tube falling off the lorry in front, digging in to the motorway (thus stopping pretty much imediately)? Luckily for him (& me) a combination of VERY impressive BMW 7 series breaks and ABS (I very much doubt anyone is thinking calmly about cadence breaking when a huge lump of concrete is heading towards the front of your car) pulled the car up with room to spare.

I really do take into account what you are saying about drivers needing more training but post after post you are judging everyone else to your high standards of driving and failing to take into account true acts of randomness that occur in everyday life.
 
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Originally posted by Entai
But the whole point is that given two identical cars in identical situations the car with ABS will take longer to stop that the car without ABS, even if the wheels lock on the car without ,this is a proven fact and is indisputable.
knowing what you do by way of employment can you explain this.
surely an ABS system is merely cadencing but at a speed faster than a human being can perfom it at.
and are you also saying that on every surface under all conditions that an ABS equipeed car will take longer to stop than an identical car without?

either way id rather the guy had ABS and therefore the CHANCE he'd remember he could steer than be without it
 
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