Concept of time

Oh and before i go to sleep, i was wondering.

If using our balloon analagy, that our universe is inside this balloon and when it expands so does our universe and when it contracts so does our universe. Is it possible that there is another balloon outside of ours, and another one next to it, which is inside a larger ballon and so on and so on? Essentially mutliple universes?

No, the 2D flat universe is on the SURFACE of the balloon! In reality we have an extra dimension to deal with (3 space + 1 time) and things get more complex. Multiple universes are real theories put forward by respectable scientists, but I think it really just amounts to semantics about how you define the word 'universe'. For me, it means everything, and talk of others doesn't have any properly defined meaning.

All this regarding the contracting crunch theory which is not even considered viable anymore since the universe is expanding :), as pointed out earlier in the thread. So cant even fathom why your using an untrue theory to support something else like the big bang creating something from absolute nothing, which takes away from the credibility of what your saying in the first place.

It's not been discredited, current observations just indicate otherwise. The physics is correct, and as I said a few times, the point is that it's easier to think of the universe crunching down to nothing than expanding from nothing. You can think of it as running time backwards to the big bang rather than being a proper big crunch, if you prefer. If you can convince yourself that the the universe can shrink down to nothing, then the entire idea of the big bang follows from that. And the thing is, it can shrink to nothing.

Wun-Yi Shu's theory,from the National Tsing Hua University in Taiwan, shows that singularities cannot exist in this cosmos and more so doesnt abandon the law of conservation of energy. Whiles Shu's theory is far from perfect, neither is the theory of the big bang and atleast it hasnt introduced "dark matter" conviently and abandoned conservation of energy.

Now you're pulling together a pretty sketchy arguement again from sources you don't really understand. I'm not familiar with that research, but it contradicts an awful lot of other research (including theory and observations) saying that singularities are possible. Naked singularites not cloaked by an event horizon may not be (that's the cosmic censorship hypothesis). I'll have a read later, need to go to work soon, but I'm currently more inclined to believe he's either wrong or you've misinterpreted his work than that he's proved singularites don't and cannot exist. Oh, and you seem to be confusing 'dark matter' with 'dark energy', they're two different things with unfortunately similar names.

Just had a quick Google and it seems that indeed Shu's arguement's are themselves pretty fatally flawed, but I'll still have a proper look later.

Considering the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate i can’t see how that fits in to the big bang theory, shouldn’t it be slowing down. I’ve been hearing about dark energy that is forcing the universe to expand at an increasing rate. For this model to work, dark energy must make up 75 per cent of the energy-mass of the Universe and be increasing at a fantastic rate. Problem being isn’t that fundementally contradicting the law of conservation of energy?

Okay, now you're making a sensible point. The key idea here is that as space itself expands, the energy density of dark energy remains constant and has done ever since the big bang. The density of every other thing (matter, dark matter etc) has fallen and we now believe dark energy to be the dominant force in determining the universe's fate. The thing is, you're right - dark energy is inherent in the fabric of space, just like vacuum energy, and as space itself gets larger, for the density of dark energy to remain the same, the amount of it must be increasing. But it increases because space expands, it's a property of the space itself. Shrink the universe down to zero size, and if all the space goes, all the energy (of that type) goes too.* Dark energy is poorly understood, and we don't know what it is, just what it does. It's really a term in an equation rather than a physical thing, by our current understanding. Even the identification with energy is tenuous.

I'd also like to reiterate that I'm pretty sure quantum fluctuations can occur even from a zero-valued field, they just require the presence of the energy field rather than requiring the field to have any particular energy itself. As I said, I'm on shaky ground with the statement and I'll take it back if someone can convince me otherwise. The gauntlet is laid down. :p

* At zero size, you hit issues of infinite densities of just about everything, since any number (no matter how small) divided by zero gives infinity, but I think the point is valid that for dark energy density to remain constant right up until the big bang, it has to be created along with space itself. This doesn't necessarily apply to other types of energy, since truth be told 'dark energy' is just a catchy way of saying 'we don't know what this is'.


And just because I'm having fun now, I'd like to pose a slightly different question. You talk about how energy isn't nothing, and that seems to be central to your arguement against the big bang, but can you answer this for me (without Google or Wikipedia!) - what is energy? :D
 
I'd also like to reiterate that I'm pretty sure quantum fluctuations can occur even from a zero-valued field, they just require the presence of the energy field rather than requiring the field to have any particular energy itself.

Absolutely, because of Heisenberg uncertainty conservation of energy is violated over very short timescales. It holds over longer timescales, of course.
 
From what i have watched and what i have read they talk about Dark energy as something that is filling the universe as it expands, as the density of the universe lessens the presence of dark energy increases, now i know that dark energy is just a a name given to something un identified but lets say for arguments sake that it is an energy and o expels that energy in some reaction we dont yet know how to scale or measure.

Is it possible that the reason the universe is expanding is that it is the dark energy that is forcing outwards, using the balloon again the air inside is dark energy and the expansion of the balloon is the reaction of dark energy expelling its energy by multiplying for want of a better word.
wouldn't this then show a form of energy then being created from as we can see 'nothing'? now i know its not going to be from nothing but its nothing we can measure at present, wouldn't this also point to dark matter being a primary factor in the big bang and the initial violent expansion of the galaxy.

That made sense in my head, im just throwing an idea out there, not sure if its been discussed, probably has as there are far far greater minds looking at these things :D
 
I think you're thinking along the right lines, Kanifee. I can't comment on the details, partly because I'm at work and partly because I don't know, but you're talking sense. I'm not sure how far the balloon analogy holds, since the space inside the balloon isn't accessible to us in our hypothetical 2D universe, but thinking about dark energy as the air inside gets the basic idea across that it's responsible for the expansion of the universe. I suppose you could think of dark energy as more air being created out of nothing to ensure the air pressure inside the balloon remains constant as it expands, but I'd be wary of relying too heavily on the details of the analogy.
 
Ok ok, working on the assumption that dark energy is the driving force behind the expansion of the universe and was one of the major factors in the big bang, could it be possible that dark energy is in fact a byproduct of something else. using multidimensions in the sense they describe our universe as a film layered on other films (dimensions)(am i taking 2D far too literal?) could it be the expansion of our universe could drive or is being driven by the expansion of another film of dimension, the expansion creates stretching and dark matter is the point at where it is stretched too thin between the films?

so is it plausible that mavity is also present when the film is thick enough and dark energy is sparse enough to allow it to be present? ie the presence of matter is actually down to a lack of dark energy and dark energy is a byproduct of the film stretching, exciting and creating an energy and so that stretching is the 'nothing' that creates dark energy, sort of a perpetual growth
Im probably moving right away from common sense on that but its fun to think about and it stands to reason that if multi dimension holds true then the expansion of one would require a universal growth on all films of dimension?


Blah, make of my ramblings what you will.
 
It's not been discredited, current observations just indicate otherwise. The physics is correct,

How can the physics be correct when its doing the total opposite, expanding.

If you can convince yourself that the the universe can shrink down to nothing,

So you have to "convince" yourself, for any of this to make sense? You havent proven it can shrink to nothing or anyone else for that matter. You dont even know what nothing is.

Oh, and you seem to be confusing 'dark matter' with 'dark energy', they're two different things with unfortunately similar names.

Just a typo, no confusion thank you.

And just because I'm having fun now, I'd like to pose a slightly different question. You talk about how energy isn't nothing, and that seems to be central to your arguement against the big bang, but can you answer this for me (without Google or Wikipedia!) - what is energy? :D

Without my G powers i would say energy is matter in a different form.

This is some complicated shizzle, far too much assumtions and leaps and completly unprovens to even remotely take it seriously. If you convince your self of something, its easy to find and make things to fit to that theory.
 
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How can the physics be correct when its doing the total opposite, expanding.

Most of physics relies on exploiting symmetries in nature, which is what I'm doing here. The physical processes we're discussing are plausible, perfectly allowed, and could well happen. Whether the universe will end with a big crunch or not depends on energy densities etc, but a big crunch is certainly a possible endstate (discovered by Friedman?) and the physics is entirely valid.

So you have to "convince" yourself, for any of this to make sense? You havent proven it can shrink to nothing or anyone else for that matter. You dont even know what nothing is.

It's a turn of phrase that I used without thinking, it means study the evidence and you'll see that it makes sense. It doesn't mean indoctrinating yourself to a state of mindless, dogmatic belief. I can recommend a bunch of popular science books if you're serious about reading further, or even proper textbooks if you really want the details of it.

The energy-matter equivalence is well known, but what is energy? If it's matter in a different form, then what is matter? I ask these questions to make the point that you're using words without understanding them properly, hence the confusion. Nature is pretty spectacular and pretty subtle, and as DAnDan has mentioned, the danger with analogies and simple explanations is that they always leave holes.
 
It's a turn of phrase that I used without thinking, it means study the evidence and you'll see that it makes sense. It doesn't mean indoctrinating yourself to a state of mindless, dogmatic belief. I can recommend a bunch of popular science books if you're serious about reading further, or even proper textbooks if you really want the details of it.

The energy-matter equivalence is well known, but what is energy? If it's matter in a different form, then what is matter? I ask these questions to make the point that you're using words without understanding them properly, hence the confusion. Nature is pretty spectacular and pretty subtle, and as DAnDan has mentioned, the danger with analogies and simple explanations is that they always leave holes.

They are one and the same thing, interchangables?

Just watched that video above, and that guy, if i understood correctly, is claiming matter always existed infinitely in what ever state it was in. Time is only our measurement of when stuff started moving?
 
Just been reading up on dark energy and it seems to just be creating more questions than answers.

From my early readings it just seems like something scientists have made up to explain a theory that otherwise was in contradiction of the actual evidence, aka the universe expanding.

Know one knows what it is, but can only say what it does, in the context of explaining why thier theory is not doing what it was supposed to be doing in the first place and thats assuming its the correct theory.

Quantum Electrodynamics produces lots of infinities in calculations, which is unexplainable, but to get around it you subtract one infinity from another, which is cheating. When observing the Casimir Effect any realistic calculation of the vacuum energy gives an energy density about 10100 times larger than the density actually measured by the accelerations of supernovas (even if you cheat the "infinity" problem).
 
Yes, it is something scientists have made up. That's how science progresses; we test our theories against observations, and if the theory fails then it needs to be adjusted. Dark energy is actually a really simple adjustment to General Relativity; it tells us that a particular term in the equation must be non-zero, a term that was in the maths initially but was then removed because observations seemed to indicate it was zero. Now it's been plugged back in again because not only is the universe expanding, its expansion is accelerating. No one knows what dark energy is, as I said above, and we don't pretend to know. The same goes for dark matter. We can only tell how it behaves, and only then in a fairly limited way.

QED is a whole different kettle of fish, and it's much closer to what I do. Renormalisation (the process you're referring to of removing infinities) is a formal, justified mathematical operation that's entirely allowed. If you want worse, then look at pure maths: infinities of different sizes crop up regularly (i.e. the infinity of irrational numbers is larger than the infinity of the integers). And yes, the infinities in quantum mechanics are a perennial plague that we have to deal with, but they only appear in certain situations, mainly when we do something wrong (which is not the same as the cases where it happens for a reason and we renormalise them). QED is actually the most successful theory we have in terms of its predictive power and agreement with experiments, so it's not a good choice of theory to try to pick holes in. :p


I'm also not entirely certain that we can't calculate the vacuum energy (which is different from dark energy), but I'll take your word for it since I don't have the correct textbook to hand.
 
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Hopefully we will get a lot of answers when ELI fires up.


Couldn't a lot of this be explained if mavity was repulsive at ultra long distances?
 
That's a theory that's been put forward too, though it's something that no one's yet been able to confirm. It's certainly an interesting idea, and would be a pretty substantial modification to what we think we currently know.
 
Im pretty sure there's no evidence that time is dimensional (like a video with past and future existing while we're watching the present) yet a lot of people believe this including scientists, however i came to the more realistic conclusion that time is simply motion, things move and change and can be affected by mavity and speed but there is no past or future, only the present and motion.

It's the reason it moves in one direction and we can't go backwards, you can slow down in relation to everything else when near light speed or hanging around a black hole but that's just a local effect, you still exist in the universe, your motion is just a bit different, make sense?
 
Im pretty sure there's no evidence that time is dimensional (like a video with past and future existing while we're watching the present) yet a lot of people believe this including scientists, however i came to the more realistic conclusion that time is simply motion, things move and change and can be affected by mavity and speed but there is no past or future, only the present and motion.

It's the reason it moves in one direction and we can't go backwards, you can slow down in relation to everything else when near light speed or hanging around a black hole but that's just a local effect, you still exist in the universe, your motion is just a bit different, make sense?

I'm no expert at this kind of thing but I'm inclined to agree that time is dimensionless.
 
The universe might not necessarily be expanding, it is sporadic and it peaks in different places at different times. The universe is growing, galaxies grow and peak, solar systems grow and peak, the planets grow. One theory is that mavity exists because the planet spins, it is the same concept of spinning a bucket of water over your head. The bigger question is what makes the earth spin and what makes it spin around the star. Surely the same factors that are at play for the earth spinning are the same factors that cause mavity. The other theory is that mavity is the product of an atmosphere or maybe a combination of the two and the rotation of the planet is a product of the stars unknown gravitational mechanisms.

Time is the reality itself, measuring time is a construct and measuring time off the planets spin around the star is just abstract. They could just have easily made it 10 hours in a day and 100 mins. If you were in deep space it would make little difference to record time based on the planets rotation.
 
Im pretty sure there's no evidence that time is dimensional (like a video with past and future existing while we're watching the present) yet a lot of people believe this including scientists, however i came to the more realistic conclusion that time is simply motion, things move and change and can be affected by mavity and speed but there is no past or future, only the present and motion.

It's the reason it moves in one direction and we can't go backwards, you can slow down in relation to everything else when near light speed or hanging around a black hole but that's just a local effect, you still exist in the universe, your motion is just a bit different, make sense?

This is only our perception of time.

MW
 
The universe might not necessarily be expanding, it is sporadic and it peaks in different places at different times. The universe is growing, galaxies grow and peak, solar systems grow and peak, the planets grow. One theory is that mavity exists because the planet spins, it is the same concept of spinning a bucket of water over your head. The bigger question is what makes the earth spin and what makes it spin around the star. Surely the same factors that are at play for the earth spinning are the same factors that cause mavity. The other theory is that mavity is the product of an atmosphere or maybe a combination of the two and the rotation of the planet is a product of the stars unknown gravitational mechanisms.

Time is the reality itself, measuring time is a construct and measuring time off the planets spin around the star is just abstract. They could just have easily made it 10 hours in a day and 100 mins. If you were in deep space it would make little difference to record time based on the planets rotation.

Uh....... your spinning bucket analogy makes no sense, because the force on the water is pointing radially outward whereas mavity pulls radially inward

The earth spins because it has angular momentum left over from when it formed. This has nothing to do with the sun and nothing to do with mavity (aside from mavity being the force that holds it together).

mavity isn't the product of an atmosphere because it still functions in minimal or non-existent atmospheres (eg the moon).
 
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