Could you have done better?
- Thread starter AJUK
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Give me £10 billion, 10,000 members of staff and in less than 7 years I will deliver it. You can have a free copy if you want.zen62619 said:No I somewhat don't think thatso why don't you make your own instead of blabbin on how you can do a better job
Baz said:
Baz, Vista is trying to emulate the methodology employed in linux (and almost every other modern OS) where users don't have Admin's credentials as default. (Also trying to ensure that applications don't expect users to have default admin rights). Even if Linux was as popular as windows this one fundamental difference means Linux is a lot harder to hack than windows. Isn't this one of the "features" of a more "secure" windows???
Besides, my point was specifically about spending a fraction on a GUI or UI for linux so that it IS accessible. Hell, they could even make it look at act like Vista currently does. The only reason Linux isn't as user friendly as windows is because MS would sue them for IP copyright. Linux could be accessible for the novice. Do you think MS would allow that?
Im not trying to knock MS. But this project is over budget, over due and has shrunk in scope to offer a lot less than originally promised. Whatever way you look at it.
I am a pathetic p r i c k
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the-void said:
Codswollop, OSX is argueably more user friendly than windows, you don't have to copy what MS has done to be user friendly! That said you can't just steal IP copyright, MS has aquired many companies and been on the wrong end of the law on a number of occasions for IP infringement.
MS has done more for the computer industry in terms of standards etc. than any other company. People seem to love the ground Apple walks on but forget that if you want their software you *HAVE* to use their hardware.
May MS should just producing MS Machines and restrict their software to only run on their hardware and then charge you through the nose for that instead!
You don't get something for nothing in this life, software in no different!
As for "could you have done better", I think the major problem for "most users" is that Vista looks and feels very much like XP, this is by design not by accident. If they had brought something out that thrown what they'd done with XP in the bin people would have gone mental!
As for Linux I would hate to calculate how many millions of hours have gone into creating it, obviously this work was done for free under GNU and not as part of a commercial enterprise.
HEADRAT
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HEADRAT said:
Didn't Lindows get shut down because it was too familiar to Windows? Do you think people or companies that are making no or minimal profits on Linux are going to even RISK getting sued of MS? Yes, you don't have to copy MS. But you do have to be very careful not to stray into either Windows or OSX territory for the risk of being sued for IP. Personally I think the US patent system a joke. I believe Nintendo is being sued by a company that "patented" a point and click device. Despite never even having any intention of developing the product. That sucks and it kills innovation.
Besides it seems you missed the point I was making. What I was saying was that if MS spent a fraction of the money and time to make GUI that sits on Linux to make it the same as Vista. Isn't that what Apple did with OSX anyway???
I am a pathetic p r i c k
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the-void said:
Erm well yes because it was just a complete rip off, HCI (Human Computer Interface) development costs ££££ you can' just let somebody come along and copy it!
the-void said:
Well I believe it was BSD but MS wasn't going to throw the towel in and just write a GUI for Linux was it
MS have been making OS's that worked when Linux was a complete pain in the harris to install and use so they weren't about to stop.HEADRAT
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HEADRAT said:Erm well yes because it was just a complete rip off, HCI (Human Computer Interface) development costs ££££ you can' just let somebody come along and copy it!
Well I believe it was BSD but MS wasn't going to throw the towel in and just write a GUI for Linux was it
HEADRAT
Headrat. You have taken my argument completely out of context. I don't wish to reiterate what I have already said back in the post. Vista is over budget, way past its due date and delivers considerably less than originally promised. That is not a mark of success. MS "COULD" have spent a fraction of that budget and time to develop a GUI front end for Linux that delivered exactly what Vista does now.
I didn't expect MS to this of course. I was just indicating the amount of wastage and slippage that has occurred on the Vista Project. After all that development and time spent, it has only just caught up to what was already on offer from OSX and Linux. It offers no great leap forward. It is not innovative.
the-void said:Whistles.
Such a considered response! without MS pushing the way we would have ended up with a jumble of hardware and standards, look at GFX cards and DX without a standard API we would have ended up with jumble of hardware and API's!
You would have then been in a situation where a game wouldn't work on a ATI card but would on a Nvidia card, what we are now left with is a situation where you can buy any hardware and you know it will work, without a standard OS and API's I don't think we'd be in the same boat.
This is just one example!
the-void said:
Large projects tend to go over budget and over time (look at Wembley), as yourself said Apple just wrote a GUI for BSD, not exactly innovative is it! They saved themselves a huge amount of time and expense and then made a really nice GUI that will only run on their own hardware, well done Apple
To be honest I don't think there is a huge amount of innovation left in the OS's, it will just be bells and whistles, we need a better way to interact with computers beyond keyboards and mice IMHO!
HEADRAT
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Linux doesn't have a 3D accelerated desktop (I'm sure there's plenty of crappy open source projects that aim to add it though). Nor does Mac OSX. What Microsoft has done is truly innovative. Read up on the desktop compositor and XAML before you post more FUDthe-void said:
The new GUI on Vista makes up about 10% of the changes BTW as you don't seem to know that.
the-void said:
But Linux didn't make it into the mainstream, because it didn't have the backing.
Windows made the PC to what how we know it at the moment, sure if Microsoft didn't make it, someone else would have.
They had the right idea from the start when they "bought" what turned out to be MS-dos and licensed it to IBM. Aside from the Mac and Linux, there hasn't been any other "home" operating system.
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NathanE said:Linux doesn't have a 3D accelerated desktop (I'm sure there's plenty of crappy open source projects that aim to add it though). Nor does Mac OSX. What Microsoft has done is truly innovative. Read up on the desktop compositor and XAML before you post more FUD
The new GUI on Vista makes up about 10% of the changes BTW as you don't seem to know that.
the new \ latest version of SUSE has got a 3d accelerated desktop, does look cool, but pointless
Yup, cool but useless. Expose that is already part of OS X and is superb; the equivalent feature in Vista looks great on the surface but is nowhere near as productive as Expose. Despite the normal grumblings about OS X being all about style and no substance, the exact opposite is true. OS X is all about productivity, it just happens to look nice while it does it.FishThrower said:....does look cool, but pointless
That's a lot of money and a lot of employees, but it's not unreasonable for a software project of that size. Writing software is a difficult business and incredibly hard to delivery in a reliable manner. Writing an operating system is the toughest job of all, as even a small bug or a small memory leak can be disasterous. And that's before you even start to get into issues like binary compatibility.
The larger the project, the harder it is to manage. It's easy to write a great piece of small software. Communication is easy, source control is easy and finding a handful of talented developers is relatively easy. Co-ordinating 10,000 developers must be an absolute nightmare and I'm glad it wasn't me trying to manage it.
Not on their own, no. However, I'm sure there's more than one OS developer on this forum.
I've never really looked into it, but isn't OSX's texture-based UI hardware accelerated? How comes the iMacs with higher res monitors have better 3D graphics cards? If it's not hardware accelerated then hats off the developers. Aero needs a pretty beefy graphics card, so do all that in software is pretty special.
The larger the project, the harder it is to manage. It's easy to write a great piece of small software. Communication is easy, source control is easy and finding a handful of talented developers is relatively easy. Co-ordinating 10,000 developers must be an absolute nightmare and I'm glad it wasn't me trying to manage it.
Not on their own, no.
However, I'm sure there's more than one OS developer on this forum.I've never really looked into it, but isn't OSX's texture-based UI hardware accelerated? How comes the iMacs with higher res monitors have better 3D graphics cards? If it's not hardware accelerated then hats off the developers. Aero needs a pretty beefy graphics card, so do all that in software is pretty special.
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NathanE said:
Check out Looking Glass.
I had a video demo of a 3D Desktop and its pretty amazing... The Desktop is a cube, or each desktop is a face on the cube anyway, and the cube can be rotated in any direction or half direction, or whatever, and any app can be dragged to/from any face, and this is all going on in 3D... Acceleration? Well, there is a game which looks similar to doom 3 / Quake 4 thats fulled on one of the faces, a Movie is being played on another face, and the game face is shrunk a little to allow movement and then dragged across the movie. It is then made transparent, and so is the movie and then they are rotated and moved in front of and behind each other, all the time, there is no slow down or jerkyness in the game or the video.
The Desktop is being developed by Novel and is a *nix GUI and the video is about 2 years old... I wonder how well that has come?
Hell, even my Atari has got a 3D Desktop.
But as all of this new wizardry in Vista can be utilised by developers, you could write something like Expose for vista. In fact, someone already has.AJUK said:Yup, cool but useless. Expose that is already part of OS X and is superb; the equivalent feature in Vista looks great on the surface but is nowhere near as productive as Expose. Despite the normal grumblings about OS X being all about style and no substance, the exact opposite is true. OS X is all about productivity, it just happens to look nice while it does it.
http://blogs.labo-dotnet.com/simon/archive/2006/11/08/11485.aspx
Is a slight problem of your average dev not quite being allowed the same access as the MS devs who did Flip3D in the first version of the DWM, so it's actually pretty slow. MS devs have apparently told the guy who wrote it that they will probably make more complete public APIs in the next version. See his post here:
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=519702&st=0&p=588120096&#entry588120096
http://research.microsoft.com/adapt/TaskGallery/FatRakoon said:
Microsoft tried something similar in the late 90s.
csmager said:
Oh yeah! - I had a demo of that on a CoverCD some while ago?
There is no Beta to download, so I will try and have a look at which CD it was on? - Wasnt impressed at all with it to be honest, but to be fair, that was back then, this is now... Things change, maybe I will like it now?
I will add however, that taskgallery and looking glass are absolutely nothing like each other... So, you cannot really compare them to each other.
Its close to anther program I tried out however, on my Atari... The difference of course being that the Atari version was complete and finished and done by one guy, where as, this MS version is still incomplete and has taken many man-hours...
(DIG)
Much like a lot of MS projects we rarely get to hear about.
(/DIG)
NathanE said:
Wtf? Most of linux is what your term a "crappy open source project", so of course it has a 3D accelerated desktops. XGL/AIGLX/Compiz/Beryl etc...
XGL/Beryl works on much lower spec hardware than what Aero requires and is far superior, both in look and feel and extensibility.
From using it though it was nice yet unproductive and nothing special but I guess that is what vista needs to attract all the technically illiterate people with eye candy.