CPR W3 on Hairworks(Nvidia Game Works)-'the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD'

[Aurhinius]

** No hotlinked images **

Although TBH I think Kepler has definitely taken a back seat. NVIDIA are focused on Maxwell, like they have been with Tegra recently. All this talk about intentionally gimping their own drivers is hilarious though, people are idiots. If these 'enthusiasts' cared to roll back far enough they could quite easily disprove that theory in 5 minutes.

Not at all jumping on the wagon. Just want to see a 780ti not benching below lesser cheaper cards. Not unreasonable expectation?

A 960 comes within 6fps of a 780ti. A 970 beats a 780ti by 10fps. 780ti should still be out performing a 970 and should leave a 960 well behind. Guru3d benchmarks show this without any gameworks tech. Do i think it is a conspiracy? No. Do i think it is a problem that needs addressing? Yes.

 

[Silent_Scone]

read the latter part of my post. I'm not saying it's a non issue, the band wagon comment was more aimed at those who are screaming intentional gimping at driver level. If I owned a Kepler card, I'd be pretty upset too, just not as unreasonable as some

 

[humbug]

I think it rather strange that not one Nvidia user has brought up the subject Keplers apparently diminishing performance, when it is brought up by others the subject is brushed to the side.

And yet most Nvidia owners here who post regularly expend pretty much all their energy on making a massive issue of AMD's faults.

Those Nvidia users scream about AMD users having a church mentality when those users don't agree with them in their AMD rantings.

Just don't say anything that could put Nvidia in a bad light, that's blasphemy.

I count myself lucky that i'm an atheist.

 

[LambChop]

I think it rather strange that not one Nvidia user has brought up the subject Keplers apparently diminishing performance, when it is brought up by others the subject is brushed to the side.

And yet most Nvidia owners here who post regularly expend pretty much all their energy on making a massive issue of AMD's faults.

Those Nvidia users scream about AMD users having a church mentality when those users don't agree with them in their AMD rantings.

Just don't say anything that could put Nvidia in a bad light, that's blasphemy.

I count myself lucky that i'm an atheist.

Could you provide, say a sample of 5 games where Keplers performance has diminished ?

 

[Orangey]

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/2one2z/discussion_has_nvidia_forsaken_kepler_cards_has/

 

[Gregster]

This whole article is worth a good read and sums up my thoughts on what is what with NVidia and AMD.

NVidia told us in a statement:

“We did not prohibit CD Projekt Red or Slightly Mad Studios from working with other IHVs to optimize their game or any GameWorks features. We did not prohibit CD Projekt Red or Slightly Mad Studios from adding technologies from other IHVs to their games.

GameWorks source code is available to licensees. We provide source code, under license, to developers who request it. Licensees can’t redistribute our source code to anyone who does not have a license.

We dedicated engineering resources, technologies and NVIDIA personal to help CD Projekt Red and Slightly Mad Studios make their games better for GeForce gamers. Both games are spectacular achievements. Their reviews are outstanding. It is very disappointing that they are being tainted by false allegations of unethical behavior.”

If there is an issue with GameWorks, it's not here. It's hard to defend AMD when the company is fueling community outrage with its own vitriol, especially considering the company hasn't yet released a stable driver for Witcher 3 performance.

We don't want AMD to fail. Sadly, the fact of the matter is that AMD is getting crushed in every ring of its gaming or enterprise divisions; and that is fact. At worst, Intel holds 92% of all server processor sales (Gartner, 2013) or 98.3% at best (Mercury Research); Intel dominates 82.7% of the desktop market (Mercury), with a 74.4% share of the gaming market (Steam Hardware Survey). NVidia holds 75.98% of all add-in board marketshare (ignoring IGPs), growing to 65% AIB marketshare around this time last year and gaining an additional ~11% total AIB marketshare in the time since (JPR). Factoring in IGPs and APUs, nVidia holds 51.8%, Intel 19.2%, and AMD a thinning 28.6% (Steam Hardware Survey). AMD's CPU and GPU revenue have plummeted 38% year-over-year, with its high-focus emergent markets falling an additional 7% (embedded, semi-custom in consoles, enterprise).

The company has axed employee count and R&D spending year-over-year since 2011, falling from $1.7B R&D spending in 2009 to $1.4B in 2010; the company spent just $242mm in quarterly R&D spending in 1Q15.

To put things into perspective, AMD's market cap sits around $2B, while Intel is nearing $150B, nVidia is around $13B, and rising giant ARM is at $25B.

The sentimental side of me wants AMD to do well, but so does the side that favors a healthy enthusiast market and competition. Unfortunately, they're not going to improve market status by spewing fire about developers and competitors. Through-the-teeth implications that CD Projekt Red and Slightly Mad Studios have somehow declined to support AMD isn't a good developer relations strategy, and it's not going to fix fundamental design flaws or bolster sales in the long-term.

Release a driver. Release a video card. Do something. We want AMD to compete. It's just good for the market.

http://www.gamersnexus.net/industry/1950-nvidia-disappointed-in-amd-false-allegations

 

[LambChop]

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/2one2z/discussion_has_nvidia_forsaken_kepler_cards_has/

NVidia cant hide from that if its true.

 

[tommybhoy]

This whole article is worth a good read and sums up my thoughts on what is what with NVidia and AMD.

GameWorks source code is available to licensees. We provide source code, under license, to developers who request it. Licensees can’t redistribute our source code to anyone who does not have a license.

Can you share what your take on that specific comment is?

 

[Gregster]

Can you share what your take on that specific comment is?

No problem. I see it as fair. I have a car and I let me friend borrow my car, I wouldn't be happy if he then let all his friends use my car. So nVidia have developed GameWorks for developers to use but not allowed to let others use who don't have permission. It cost time and money to develop these effects, which "can" be turned off if they don't run too well on other IHV's and it isn't compulsory to have them on.

What is your take on it?

 

[trynoval]

The Witcher 3 Will Get Graphical Improvements in Upcoming Patch



http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/...get-graphical-improvements-in-upcoming-patch/

Thank you very much for the info.
This news is once again awesome.

 

[pgi947]

read the latter part of my post. I'm not saying it's a non issue, the band wagon comment was more aimed at those who are screaming intentional gimping at driver level. If I owned a Kepler card, I'd be pretty upset too, just not as unreasonable as some

This.

They aren't intentionally damaging Kepler performance, they just aren't intentionally optimising Kepler in newer drivers.

Performance for Kepler has gradually sloped off, my 780's are still doing fine but a large part of that is down to gsync.

 

[LoadsaMoney]

I think it rather strange that not one Nvidia user has brought up the subject Keplers apparently diminishing performance, when it is brought up by others the subject is brushed to the side.

And yet most Nvidia owners here who post regularly expend pretty much all their energy on making a massive issue of AMD's faults.

Those Nvidia users scream about AMD users having a church mentality when those users don't agree with them in their AMD rantings.

Just don't say anything that could put Nvidia in a bad light, that's blasphemy.

I count myself lucky that i'm an atheist.

As Nvidia can't do any wrong, look at vram-gate.

 

[humbug]

This whole article is worth a good read and sums up my thoughts on what is what with NVidia and AMD.
http://www.gamersnexus.net/industry/1950-nvidia-disappointed-in-amd-false-allegations

I have to disagree with you there Greg, AMD's rhetoric may not be wise but to write about how its actually all AMD's fault and endorsing that makes you and the author every bit as bad as you say AMD are.

I would also ask again why none of these people talk about how a GTX 960 beats a GTX 780 in PC, thats a huge failing on Nvidia's part to service cards they are selling to the public right now. there are other examples of where Kepler is increasingly seemingly ignore by Nvidia, perhaps even gimped.... just as they did in lying about the GTX 970 Specifications.

AMD may not have ability to service their customers efficiently right now, Nvidia don't even have that reasoning.

Its that church mentality again. a lot of effort to pull AMD up, but not Nvidia, never Nvidia.

 

[tommybhoy]

Think pgi worded it perfectly humbug, more a case of 'that's your lot', although I think Nvidia will monitor it and if there's a big enough ruffle of discontent, they'll address it.

No problem. I see it as fair. I have a car and I let me friend borrow my car, I wouldn't be happy if he then let all his friends use my car. So nVidia have developed GameWorks for developers to use but not allowed to let others use who don't have permission. It cost time and money to develop these effects, which "can" be turned off if they don't run too well on other IHV's and it isn't compulsory to have them on.

What is your take on it?

It's more like kicking your mate out your car and making him walk to work in the ****ing rain because it's your car, totally justifiable as he doesn't have one but it's ok because you'll both get there in the end and it's a **** take anyway


'GameWorks source code is available to licensees. We provide source code, under license, to developers who request it'-CDR have access to the code, fine.

'Licensees can’t redistribute our source code to anyone who does not have a license'-CDR can't share the code.

'the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products'-but the line is it's for devs to code in effects easily, if it's to make it easier for devs, why can't the devs help AMD getting a game feature optimised?

The 'giving away something for free' and the 'turn it off' lines are deflecting the issue.

In direct comparison, Nixxes worked hand in hand alongside Nvidia to enable fully functional TFX code and modified TFX code to work as it should-in an early patching/fix attempt, Nixxes even broke AMD TFX to the point that they gave BOTH AMD AND Nvidia two different versions to use, with working TFX on BOTH at the same time-and AMD didn't so much as blink an eye.

All TR TFX gamers regardless the gpu were winners.

Which ultimately gets a win win situation for Nvidia, it pushed me to the dark side.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Let's face it, there are Nvidia fans here that will blame AMD and defend Nvidia and there are AMD fans that will blame Nvidia and defend AMD. One side is as bad as the other.

As for the 960 being better than a 780, well, since the 960 isn't just a rebrand of a last gen card is it not possible that there are areas in which it is just better?
Sure, while AMD rebrand it's old card as new cards this is unlikely to happen with AMD and does also mean that they might support older tech for longer (unless you're talking Freesync, TrueAudio or Mantle which require newer tech). Isn't it nice that sometimes a whole series of card is new tech?
I'm not sure if the 7870 was a rebrand of the 6970 but didn't the 7870 fair pretty well against the 6970?

 

[tommybhoy]

Let's face it, there are Nvidia fans here that will blame AMD and defend Nvidia and there are AMD fans that will blame Nvidia and defend AMD. One side is as bad as the other.

Sick to death of hearing about it being a 'blame game', it's **** for the PC gaming community.

Taking vendor preference out the equation, if you had the choice of the Nixxes approach or the black box approach, which one benefits the PC gaming community?

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Sick to death of hearing about it being a 'blame game', it's **** for the PC gaming community.

Taking vendor preference out the equation, if you had the choice of the Nixxes approach or the black box approach, which one benefits the PC gaming community?

Well, threads like this just seem to perpetuate the blame game. All of these GameWorks gimping performance on AMD threads we've had for every GameWorks game...
Maybe it's my memory, but I seem to recall more threads about GameWork hurting AMD performance than threads of people blaming AMD tech.

I quite like that Nvidia innovate rather than just produce their version of somebody else's work.

 

[Gregster]

I have to disagree with you there Greg, AMD's rhetoric may not be wise but to write about how its actually all AMD's fault and endorsing that makes you and the author every bit as bad as you say AMD are.

I would also ask again why none of these people talk about how a GTX 960 beats a GTX 780 in PC, thats a huge failing on Nvidia's part to service cards they are selling to the public right now. there are other examples of where Kepler is increasingly seemingly ignore by Nvidia, perhaps even gimped.... just as they did in lying about the GTX 970 Specifications.

AMD may not have ability to service their customers efficiently right now, Nvidia don't even have that reasoning.

Its that church mentality again. a lot of effort to pull AMD up, but not Nvidia, never Nvidia.

Well, that is my take on it and as for this church mentality, I noticed a post from you earlier accusing people of always playing this church mentality card but the only person I have ever seen put GPU's and the Church together is you lol. I think you are reading your own posts and getting wound up bud.

To try and answer your question about gimping. I understand that the 960 is very good at tessellation (pretty much like the 285 is better for AMD) and deals with tessellation far better than Kepler, so with The Witcher 3 using big amounts of Tess, I imagine this is why it is looking better on some of the graphs we have seen. I don't for one minute think that nVidia are gimping Kepler cards and just the fact that they don't deal with Tess so well.

@ Tommy

Like I said to Humbug, that is the way I see it and enjoy your new nVidia card/s

 

[Silent_Scone]

Think pgi worded it perfectly humbug, more a case of 'that's your lot', although I think Nvidia will monitor it and if there's a big enough ruffle of discontent, they'll address it.




It's more like kicking your mate out your car and making him walk to work in the ****ing rain because it's your car, totally justifiable as he doesn't have one but it's ok because you'll both get there in the end and it's a **** take anyway


'GameWorks source code is available to licensees. We provide source code, under license, to developers who request it'-CDR have access to the code, fine.

'Licensees can’t redistribute our source code to anyone who does not have a license'-CDR can't share the code.

'the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products'-but the line is it's for devs to code in effects easily, if it's to make it easier for devs, why can't the devs help AMD getting a game feature optimised?

The 'giving away something for free' and the 'turn it off' lines are deflecting the issue.

In direct comparison, Nixxes worked hand in hand alongside Nvidia to enable fully functional TFX code and modified TFX code to work as it should-in an early patching/fix attempt, Nixxes even broke AMD TFX to the point that they gave BOTH AMD AND Nvidia two different versions to use, with working TFX on BOTH at the same time-and AMD didn't so much as blink an eye.

All TR TFX gamers regardless the gpu were winners.

Which ultimately gets a win win situation for Nvidia, it pushed me to the dark side.

What are you talking about? AMD should pony up and buy a licence then. Considering it took them 3 months to get an AOG monitor in to debug the CR timing issue on the SST panel it's no surprise they've not forked out on something as big as this licencing agreement. TressFX debute needed that push, we've not seen anything like that since with any other studio

 

[tommybhoy]

Sorry, was under the impression the Nixxes example was easy enough to understand.

@Greg, thanks, I am.