CPU Longevity?

humbug · 21 May 2017 at 02:17

voidshatter said:
Longevity is based on the fact that it is performing well. If something isn't performing pretty well at launch, then where does longevity come from? The persistence of being of poor performance?

What the hell is all that crap you just cherry picked? what is Nik collection? Capture One? its obviously a Chinese website... would it be the same one that was debunked as fake?

Edit. i just Googled it, Nik collection and Capture One are the same as photoshop, so the 3 images he put up there are all of the same type of workflow, image editing, that's not image rendering like 3D or anything like that, its touching up red eye ecte... that doesn't need and CPU performance to work so it not optimised for multi-threading, its Mobilephone and tablet sort of image editing.

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 02:18

humbug said:
The result is as that screenshot proves the Ryzen Chip with 50% more cores, 75% more threads is 60% faster than the i5 there.

This will only happen when the fictional powerful GPU is readily available in the market. By that time, current Ryzen chips will be replaced with higher clock Ryzens or whatever comes next.

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 02:20

humbug said:
What the hell is all that crap you just cherry picked? what is Nik collection? capture one? its obviously a Chinese website... would it be the same one that was debunked as fake?

It's not crap or fake. It's from irentals.cn, which is the Chinese equivalence of lensrentals.com. They do lots of neutral and independent reviews because they have access to various brands and make profit by rentals, not manufacturer's sponsorship.

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 02:25

humbug said:
what is Nik collection? Capture One?

To answer your question, Capture One is a software by Phase One. Phase One sells the best digital back in the world. Though it might be a bit too hard for you to understand since you can't even touch the entry level product of theirs.

humbug · 21 May 2017 at 02:25

voidshatter said:
It's not crap or fake. It's from irentals.cn, which is the Chinese equivalence of lensrentals.com. They do lots of neutral and independent reviews because they have access to various brands and make profit by rentals, not manufacturer's sponsorship.

They reviewed the same workflow from 3 different vendors. they are all home image editing tools, not 3D rendering, nothing like that, sort of touching up photograph on your mobile phone.

Ryzen isn't better at absolutely everything, but. Seriously, you had to go to China for 3 slides reviewing the same thing... really?

What happened to Intel's favourite, Cinebench? has that suddenly fallen out of favour, why is that then?

Because even the £1000 6900K cannot keep pace with the £400 Ryzen?

Oh and why is this suddenly not about CPU and games longevity anymore? as the auther of this thread is asking, are you changing the subject? to how fast a CPU can fix Red Eye? does that mean your now accepting what i'm saying to you?

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 02:33

humbug said:
They reviewed the same workflow from 3 different vendors. they are all home image editing tools, not 3D rendering, nothing like that, sort of touching up photograph on your mobile phone.

Ryzen isn't better at absolutely everything, but. Seriously, you had to go to China for 3 slides reviewing the same thing... really?

What happened to Intel's favourite, Cinebench? has that suddenly fallen out of favour, why is that then?

Because even the £1000 6900K cannot keep pace with the £400 Ryzen.

Home image editing tools like mobile phone retouch apps? Phase One photographers would take a heart-attack by seeing you writing this

Why going to China for these? Because as far as I know only irentals.cn has an editor who happens to be a computer geek at the same time while he's professional regarding photography gear and post-processing.

I never liked the 6800K because it doesn't clock well and should be ashamed by Ryzen. I prefer specialised items, such like the ThreadReaper for 16C32T, or the 7700K for 5GHz. The 6800K is just in the middle of nowhere, while being more expensive than Ryzen's offers.

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 02:36

humbug said:
Oh and why is this suddenly not about CPU and games longevity anymore? as the auther of this thread is asking, are you changing the subject? to how fast a CPU can fix Red Eye? does that mean your now accepting what i'm saying to you?

The subject has never been changed. I've always been arguing about two separate things: one is for gaming, and the other is for applications in other fields, as suggested by #112 of this thread.

humbug · 21 May 2017 at 02:49

voidshatter said:
Home image editing tools like mobile phone retouch apps? Phase One photographers would take a heart-attack by seeing you writing this

Why going to China for these? Because as far as I know only irentals.cn has an editor who happens to be a computer geek at the same time while he's professional regarding photography gear and post-processing.

I never liked the 6900K because it doesn't clock well and should be ashamed by Ryzen. I prefer specialised items, such like the ThreadReaper for 16C32T, or the 7700K for 5GHz. The 6900K is just in the middle of nowhere, while being more expensive than Ryzen's offers.

I have issues taking you seriously, not just because you went to China for 3 slides running the same type of workflow, but because your "Phase One photographers" wouldn't use application so poorly optimised they don't scale with threads.

no self respecting photo editor would use anything like that.

This is what i'm talking about, if you want to talk about things other than games then i can pull up plenty to show you were Intel get beat, will that then no longer be relevant to you?

No matter how much you ignore it, This is relevant, like it or not...

humbug said:
Do you get why the Ryzen chip here is nearly 60% faster than the Intel one?

Does the thread usage comparison give it away? is this maybe why the Ryzen chip has better longevity than the Intel one?

humbug said:
Its fine ^^^^ it just makes the point over and over again, eventually 'if not with him' it will sink into reasonable minds reading this.

When you test a CPU's true performance in games you make the CPU Not the GPU work for it.

What do you think will happen when GPU's get faster, and faster and....? the CPU will have to work harder and harder to keep up, the way you test for that with weaker GPU, or one from today is to offload the work onto the CPU by turning the resolution down, it mimics the faster GPU making the CPU work hard to keep up.

The result is as that screenshot proves the Ryzen Chip with 50% more cores, 75% more threads is 60% faster than the i5 there.

So the better CPU for longevity is....??????? yes, its the Ryzen chip.

If what you are doing is using a home photo touch up app, and nothing else, then you best bet is actually an i3, but don't expect it to work as well in anything else.

Anyone can come up with something very specific, like a single function to say "this is why this is better" the truth is very different, a wheel barrow is very good for lugging cement around, its not much good for taking the family to the beach.

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 03:01

humbug said:
I have issues taking you seriously, not just because you went to China for 3 slides running the same type of workflow, but because your "Phase One photographers" wouldn't use application so poorly optimised they don't scale with threads. no self respecting photo editor would use anything like that.

This is what i'm talking about, if you want to talk about things other than games then i can pull up plenty to show you were Intel get beat, will that then no longer be relevant to you?

No matter how much you ignore it, This is relevant, like it or not...

I have issues taking you seriously, not just because you went to China for 3 slides running the same type of workflow, but because your "Phase One photographers" wouldn't use application so poorly optimised they don't scale with threads.

If what you are doing is using a home photo touch up app, and nothing else, then you best bet is actually an i3, but don't expect it to work as well in anything else.

Anyone can come up with something very specific, like a single function to say "this is why this is better" the truth is very different, a wheel barrow is very good for lugging cement around, its not much good for taking the family to the beach.

#115 has made it clear that it's 4 completely different workflows. If you are not familiar with post-processing of photography images then the further you quibble the further you embarrass yourself. When you start to get to know about photography you would realise that Capture One is the only best native solution to decode the RAW files taken by Phase One's digital backs. No mobile phone app can help you with that. There's also another sad fact that other multi-threaded RAW decoders with 8C16T perform worse than Capture One does with merely 4C4T.

As a computer scientist I can assure you that there are still tasks that cannot be easily parallelised, because some computation steps rely on results of previous steps. Also, the extra effort/human hours/risks of bugs may not justify the performance improvement. Truth is that you may spend 1 day for coding and debugging and let it run for 6 days, or spend 6 days for coding and debugging and let it run for 1 day.

humbug · 21 May 2017 at 03:16

voidshatter said:
#115 has made it clear that it's 4 completely different workflows. If you are not familiar with post-processing of photography images then the further you quibble the further you embarrass yourself. When you start to get to know about photography you would realise that Capture One is the only best native solution to decode the RAW files taken by Phase One's digital backs. No mobile phone app can help you with that.

As a computer scientist I can assure you that there are still tasks that cannot be easily parallelised, because some computation steps rely on results of previous steps. Also, the extra effort/human hours/risks of bugs may not justify the performance improvement. Truth is that you may spend 1 day for coding and debugging and let it run for 6 days, or spend 6 days for coding and debugging and let it run for 1 day.

Don't pretend to be the expert on photo editing and use that to talk down to us, as if importing and exporting images, stitching photos together and applying filters are wildly different things and are the be all and end all of CPU performance.
To go that far afield to find it, not even an English speaking nation, and then use that to try and brow beat us into submission, to prove an argument no one made in the first place as wrong, your saying i'm embarrassing myself?

Remind me again, why is it that the 1800X beating the 6900K in most mainstream workflows and the 1600 beating the Intel chip in games irrelevant to anyone reading this? but importing images into an application called "Nik collection" is the only thing that matters?

Please, don't tell me im embarrassing myself. seriously

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 03:24

humbug said:
Don't pretend to be the expert on photo editing and use that to talk down to us, as if importing and exporting images, stitching photos together and applying filters are wildly different things and are the be all and end all of CPU performance.
To go that far afield to find it, not even an English speaking nation, and then use that to try and brow beat us into submission, to prove an argument no one made in the first place as wrong, your saying i'm embarrassing myself?

Remind me again, why is it that the 1800X beating the 6900K in most mainstream workflows and the 1600 beating the Intel chip in games irrelevant to anyone reading this? but importing images into an application called "Nik collection" is the only think that matters?

Please, don't tell me im embarrassing myself. seriously

Oh, sorry for the disappointment, but I've been into photography for years and spent long enough with Phase One digital backs. As for importing and exporting, that's the common task for a wedding/event session, and also crucial for stacking. As for stitching, that operation is bottlenecked by image alignment which cannot be easily parallelised, which is also the case for stacking. Nik Collection is the most popular plug-in if not golden standard for landscape photography. You don't want to wait in front of your computer lagging for these operations with a 4GHz Ryzen trust me. What you want is a 5GHz Ryzen if you want to at the same time take care of other multi-threaded applications, not the 6900K either.

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 03:29

humbug said:
not even an English speaking nation

There's also another sad fact I'd like to share with you: no English speaking nation can afford such luxury photography gear

Sorry that the English-speaking guys are so poor that they can only share bitterness across the internet...

humbug · 21 May 2017 at 03:30

voidshatter said:
Oh, sorry for the disappointment, but I've been into photography for years and spent long enough with Phase One digital backs. As for importing and exporting, that's the common task for a wedding/event session, and also crucial for stacking. As for stitching, that operation is bottlenecked by image alignment which cannot be easily parallelised, which is also the case for stacking. Nik Collection is the most popular plug-in if not golden standard for landscape photography. You don't want to wait in front of your computer lagging for these operations with a 4GHz Ryzen trust me. What you want is a 5GHz Ryzen if you want to at the same time take care of other multi-threaded applications, not the 6900K either.

Other Image based rendering applications have no issue running such tasks in parallel.

I still don't see how importing images into Nik Collection is more important than how well their games run, how many 'applications' they can run in parallel
Its obviously important to you, which is fine

but it seems its the only thing that matters to you, all you need is an i3, with that you are completely unique here.

This is important to anyone but you.

Thekwango · 21 May 2017 at 03:41

voidshatter said:
There's also another sad fact I'd like to share with you: no English speaking nation can afford such luxury photography gear Sorry that the English-speaking guys are so poor that they can only share bitterness across the internet...

Confirmed as a troll.

Edited: probably a bit too harsh.

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 05:43

humbug said:
all you need is an i3

If you can give sufficient evidence that an i3 can overclock significantly better than an i7-7700K can

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 05:48

Thekwango said:
Confirmed as a nutjob and a troll.

Interesting. I came into this thread with polite words, only to get shunned away by harsh words, and now classified as a troll/nutjob.

What I see is that China's fastest computer is 1443% faster than UK's fastest computer. How noble it is to repeatedly discriminate Chinese reviews.

I definitely need a CPU good at web-browser performance in order to successfully escape from forum fights. Send help!

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 05:56

humbug said:
This is important to anyone but you.

Quoting this picture again and again isn't going to change the fact that in the immediate future there exists no GPU which can handle this game at 4k Ultra settings and make it CPU-bound. The first generation Ryzen is destined to waste its best years without AMD Navi's successor and NVIDIA Volta's successor. (Sort of like a beautiful girl in her best years without a man)

greatash · 21 May 2017 at 09:27

Ryzen is definitely better for the long run. I keep my CPUs for 5+ years, been with my 2500k for 6 years now. So if I bought Ryzen now I would be using it with Navi in 2020 (and whats next in 2022?), which an i5 or i7 4 core would heavily bottleneck since they already hit very high usage (especially i5s now hit 90%+ usage in almost every modern game).

If you replace your cpu every year you can waste money on an i7, but the thread is for longevity.

1080ti can already hit 60fps in metro LL at 4k ultra so theres no reason why the next gen wouldnt get 100+ frames and make it cpu bound.

Not to mention an i7 7700k has like zero upgrade routes since Intel changes socket way too much

Drollic · 21 May 2017 at 09:47

Getting silly

voidshatter · 21 May 2017 at 10:18

greatash said:
1080ti can already hit 60fps in metro LL at 4k ultra

Really? This makes me feel out-dated. Below is a review not even at max settings:

I just downloaded Metro LL...

and ran the benchmark at 1080p max settings. I can see that for 1080 (non Ti) the fps was around 60 fps for the stressful scenes in the benchmark.

If 1080 Ti is 37% faster than 1080, and if 1080p is 300% faster than 4k for GPU-bound games, then the estimated lower bound benchmark fps of 1080 Ti running Metro LL at 4k max settings should be around 21 fps (which agrees with the above review). It's gonna take 3.5 generations to hit 60 fps if each generation improves by 37%, and 60 fps is not a CPU-bound game. SLI/CF may be a different story though.

Below is a screenshot of the beginning of the game where the 4C8T CPU is nowhere close to the bottleneck.