CS:GO Discussion
- Thread starter NeilMcL86
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Soldato
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How do you know it is completely wrong? (I think you are right by the way but in terms of evidence the door swings both ways).
The fact that proving someone is hacking is so hard has played to the advantage of hackers for a very long time. Smart hackers can be hacking for years before they get caught. How long do you think these pro players have been hacking? "I only did it this once your honour!". Yah. Right. So how do you prove someone is not hacking? You can't, so statements calling haxusations about this percentage or that percentage of hackers in game rubbish are just as rubbish as the haxusations themselves (imo).
Playing against a smart hacker is similar to playing against a good player. Lets not be under any illusions, many hackers have had years of practice in honing their skills as a player and as a hacker. Indeed, often people hacking are actually competent/good players to start with. This is why they are so successful as a hacker because they understand the game well, the mechanics, the movement, the tactics and know how to play. As such they know how to hack well and keep it discrete. Sure, obvious ragers soon get kicked/banned, but the less obvious closet hackers? Chances are we have some on this forum, and in any given game you might have one in your server. I have been part of gaming communities for years, and even people I have played with in teams and met irl have been hackers. It sucks and it makes you feel betrayed, but it is what it is.
Simply saying "QQ, L2P" is not helpful, and watching videos back also does not prove they are not hacking. I have wasted hours of my life watching hackers and the good ones make their game look very natural, even to the point of letting themselves be killed a few times to make it more convincing. Add to that the tweaking of the hack itself to factor in a miss percentage to make their accuracy look more human and you will have a hard time differentiating a good hacker from a good player. But they will undoubtedly always have the edge. This is the crux of it, though. That edge can be massively OP. Take wallhacking for example, it is easy for a player with any game sense to mask their use of a WH, particularly in 1v1 situations. But 99.9% of the time they will win that scenario and win it in a way that looks natural. It completely breaks the blance of any game, though. So whilst they may not be overt, pound to a penny they will pull it out of the bag every time they need to. Likewise, a WH user is unlikely to be suprised moving around the map, and I am always suspicious of any player that is consistently in the right place at the right time (or never ever in the wrong place). Game sense goes a long way, but statistics and chances in a small environment with a known number of players says a person is bound to walk into an ambush, or walk into the line of sight of an enemy player. It is a certainty.
I have no problems with a good player beating me. I use it as a learning tool. But, the problem is hacking is prolific in online games and always has been. To try an pretend otherwise is just a denial of a basic truth. Indeed in my years of playing online games it is often the people saying that not many people hack that are usually the ones hacking (no offence to you guys - that is just my experience). The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist....etc etc.
When you tie in all of the threads relating to the subject, the picture starts to become more clear.
The hacking site industry has boomed in recent years with hundreds of thousands of users. Pro gamers being caught hacking, as well as thousands of youtube vids of other players being very suspect. Thousands of people being VAC banned, and that is just a single form of anti cheat........
The point being that if you think you got beat by a player that is just better than you, statistically they could be hacking. Players know this, and it is easier to believe and accept than the fact that someone is simply better than they are.
Unfortunately it is a toxic cycle and has damaged the online scene irreprably. Haxusations are as damaging as the hackers themselves. But what is the alternative? Say nothing and let hackers do as they please?
Non-hacking players see the amount of hackers being banned, or the amount of people registered with hacking sites and put two and two together if they get stomped. True they may come up with 5, but then statistically theres a chance they are actually right.
I dont get accused of hacking much anymore, except in Tribes. Back in the day when I played a lot more I did and instead of being confrontational with QQ comments and L2P I would say thanks. I would also do my best to help players with lower ability than mine. I still do this now in Tribes and will recommend strategies and loadouts for helping a player to beat me (IE if I am sent and they are trying to inf me). But it seems a large portion of the gaming community don't care about trying to help newer players, particularly ones who, out of frustration, cry hacks.
Whilst I can see why people would not be keen to help that player, surely it would be better for the community overall if we took the time to guide these people and show them why they are wrong? Just seems like there are far too many elitist epeens in the online community of late, and that in itself is toxic. One of the reasons I have more or less quit Tribes is that same reason. A large part of the Tribes community at the moment is cancer, sadly.
Soldato
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- 24 Apr 2011
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How do you know it is completely wrong? (I think you are right by the way but in terms of evidence the door swings both ways).
The fact that proving someone is hacking is so hard has played to the advantage of hackers for a very long time. Smart hackers can be hacking for years before they get caught. How long do you think these pro players have been hacking? "I only did it this once your honour!". Yah. Right. So how do you prove someone is not hacking? You can't, so statements calling haxusations about this percentage or that percentage of hackers in game rubbish are just as rubbish as the haxusations themselves (imo).
Playing against a smart hacker is similar to playing against a good player. Lets not be under any illusions, many hackers have had years of practice in honing their skills as a player and as a hacker. Indeed, often people hacking are actually competent/good players to start with. This is why they are so successful as a hacker because they understand the game well, the mechanics, the movement, the tactics and know how to play. As such they know how to hack well and keep it discrete. Sure, obvious ragers soon get kicked/banned, but the less obvious closet hackers? Chances are we have some on this forum, and in any given game you might have one in your server. I have been part of gaming communities for years, and even people I have played with in teams and met irl have been hackers. It sucks and it makes you feel betrayed, but it is what it is.
Simply saying "QQ, L2P" is not helpful, and watching videos back also does not prove they are not hacking. I have wasted hours of my life watching hackers and the good ones make their game look very natural, even to the point of letting themselves be killed a few times to make it more convincing. Add to that the tweaking of the hack itself to factor in a miss percentage to make their accuracy look more human and you will have a hard time differentiating a good hacker from a good player. But they will undoubtedly always have the edge. This is the crux of it, though. That edge can be massively OP. Take wallhacking for example, it is easy for a player with any game sense to mask their use of a WH, particularly in 1v1 situations. But 99.9% of the time they will win that scenario and win it in a way that looks natural. It completely breaks the blance of any game, though. So whilst they may not be overt, pound to a penny they will pull it out of the bag every time they need to. Likewise, a WH user is unlikely to be suprised moving around the map, and I am always suspicious of any player that is consistently in the right place at the right time (or never ever in the wrong place). Game sense goes a long way, but statistics and chances in a small environment with a known number of players says a person is bound to walk into an ambush, or walk into the line of sight of an enemy player. It is a certainty.
I have no problems with a good player beating me. I use it as a learning tool. But, the problem is hacking is prolific in online games and always has been. To try an pretend otherwise is just a denial of a basic truth. Indeed in my years of playing online games it is often the people saying that not many people hack that are usually the ones hacking (no offence to you guys - that is just my experience). The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist....etc etc.
When you tie in all of the threads relating to the subject, the picture starts to become more clear.
The hacking site industry has boomed in recent years with hundreds of thousands of users. Pro gamers being caught hacking, as well as thousands of youtube vids of other players being very suspect. Thousands of people being VAC banned, and that is just a single form of anti cheat........
The point being that if you think you got beat by a player that is just better than you, statistically they could be hacking. Players know this, and it is easier to believe and accept than the fact that someone is simply better than they are.
Unfortunately it is a toxic cycle and has damaged the online scene irreprably. Haxusations are as damaging as the hackers themselves. But what is the alternative? Say nothing and let hackers do as they please?
Non-hacking players see the amount of hackers being banned, or the amount of people registered with hacking sites and put two and two together if they get stomped. True they may come up with 5, but then statistically theres a chance they are actually right.
I dont get accused of hacking much anymore, except in Tribes. Back in the day when I played a lot more I did and instead of being confrontational with QQ comments and L2P I would say thanks. I would also do my best to help players with lower ability than mine. I still do this now in Tribes and will recommend strategies and loadouts for helping a player to beat me (IE if I am sent and they are trying to inf me). But it seems a large portion of the gaming community don't care about trying to help newer players, particularly ones who, out of frustration, cry hacks.
Whilst I can see why people would not be keen to help that player, surely it would be better for the community overall if we took the time to guide these people and show them why they are wrong? Just seems like there are far too many elitist epeens in the online community of late, and that in itself is toxic. One of the reasons I have more or less quit Tribes is that same reason. A large part of the Tribes community at the moment is cancer, sadly.
Need tl;dr pls
Soldato
- Joined
- 19 Jun 2012
- Posts
- 5,438
How do you know it is completely wrong? (I think you are right by the way but in terms of evidence the door swings both ways).
The fact that proving someone is hacking is so hard has played to the advantage of hackers for a very long time. Smart hackers can be hacking for years before they get caught. How long do you think these pro players have been hacking? "I only did it this once your honour!". Yah. Right. So how do you prove someone is not hacking? You can't, so statements calling haxusations about this percentage or that percentage of hackers in game rubbish are just as rubbish as the haxusations themselves (imo).
Playing against a smart hacker is similar to playing against a good player. Lets not be under any illusions, many hackers have had years of practice in honing their skills as a player and as a hacker. Indeed, often people hacking are actually competent/good players to start with. This is why they are so successful as a hacker because they understand the game well, the mechanics, the movement, the tactics and know how to play. As such they know how to hack well and keep it discrete. Sure, obvious ragers soon get kicked/banned, but the less obvious closet hackers? Chances are we have some on this forum, and in any given game you might have one in your server. I have been part of gaming communities for years, and even people I have played with in teams and met irl have been hackers. It sucks and it makes you feel betrayed, but it is what it is.
Simply saying "QQ, L2P" is not helpful, and watching videos back also does not prove they are not hacking. I have wasted hours of my life watching hackers and the good ones make their game look very natural, even to the point of letting themselves be killed a few times to make it more convincing. Add to that the tweaking of the hack itself to factor in a miss percentage to make their accuracy look more human and you will have a hard time differentiating a good hacker from a good player. But they will undoubtedly always have the edge. This is the crux of it, though. That edge can be massively OP. Take wallhacking for example, it is easy for a player with any game sense to mask their use of a WH, particularly in 1v1 situations. But 99.9% of the time they will win that scenario and win it in a way that looks natural. It completely breaks the blance of any game, though. So whilst they may not be overt, pound to a penny they will pull it out of the bag every time they need to. Likewise, a WH user is unlikely to be suprised moving around the map, and I am always suspicious of any player that is consistently in the right place at the right time (or never ever in the wrong place). Game sense goes a long way, but statistics and chances in a small environment with a known number of players says a person is bound to walk into an ambush, or walk into the line of sight of an enemy player. It is a certainty.
I have no problems with a good player beating me. I use it as a learning tool. But, the problem is hacking is prolific in online games and always has been. To try an pretend otherwise is just a denial of a basic truth. Indeed in my years of playing online games it is often the people saying that not many people hack that are usually the ones hacking (no offence to you guys - that is just my experience). The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist....etc etc.
When you tie in all of the threads relating to the subject, the picture starts to become more clear.
The hacking site industry has boomed in recent years with hundreds of thousands of users. Pro gamers being caught hacking, as well as thousands of youtube vids of other players being very suspect. Thousands of people being VAC banned, and that is just a single form of anti cheat........
The point being that if you think you got beat by a player that is just better than you, statistically they could be hacking. Players know this, and it is easier to believe and accept than the fact that someone is simply better than they are.
Unfortunately it is a toxic cycle and has damaged the online scene irreprably. Haxusations are as damaging as the hackers themselves. But what is the alternative? Say nothing and let hackers do as they please?
Non-hacking players see the amount of hackers being banned, or the amount of people registered with hacking sites and put two and two together if they get stomped. True they may come up with 5, but then statistically theres a chance they are actually right.
I dont get accused of hacking much anymore, except in Tribes. Back in the day when I played a lot more I did and instead of being confrontational with QQ comments and L2P I would say thanks. I would also do my best to help players with lower ability than mine. I still do this now in Tribes and will recommend strategies and loadouts for helping a player to beat me (IE if I am sent and they are trying to inf me). But it seems a large portion of the gaming community don't care about trying to help newer players, particularly ones who, out of frustration, cry hacks.
Whilst I can see why people would not be keen to help that player, surely it would be better for the community overall if we took the time to guide these people and show them why they are wrong? Just seems like there are far too many elitist epeens in the online community of late, and that in itself is toxic. One of the reasons I have more or less quit Tribes is that same reason. A large part of the Tribes community at the moment is cancer, sadly.
Obviously there has always been hackers but when you have a ranking system in competitive mode I feel it pushes people to hack more. The ranking tag means little to me but I suspect people who didn't hack before csgo would be more inclined to. In 1.6 hacking basically meant you would top a public server which meant very little.
The smart clan players who discreetly use hacks are almost impossible to detect and I was shocked to see they had the balls to use them on LAN, which for me was always a measure of how good a player was.
How do you counter hackers? One thought would be valve or a similar company create a good cheat and entrap a vast amount of hackers.
Of course even if you catch them they can just create a new account and carry on with another cheat.
When was it ever £25!? It's just come out, the 2014
i believe the FK1 is newer than the FK'14
it uses a new sensor anyway the 3310 rather than the 3090 in the FK'14
but it was £25 a week ago i believe. cant find a thread saying but here on hotdeals.
http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/zow...2014-edition-other-zowie-mice-25-ocuk-2065328
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Soldato
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- 19 Jun 2012
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I agree, it is a tough one. The trouble is, valve has a financial interest in hackers creating new accounts and buying more games, hence why they dont expand the overall impact of a VAC ban. When that kind of conflict of interest exists, I doubt we can look towards Valve making too many in-roads on the matter.
I admire players who can play and think everyone is legit. I have always accepted my years as a server admin have made me jaded, and in this I can't help but lean towards a more worse case view when assessing any given player. But having said that, I have often been right in my cynical suspiscions about a player. So I guess it is swings and roundabouts.
My view is that only intrusive anti-cheat systems will work, or place the game itself beyond any control or manipulation by a player. IE keep all of the files and data server side and in effect turn the gaming experience into an interactive stream. I am not sure if that would even be technically achievable, but I see it as a possible way forwards.
Well the majority of recent bans have been a result of ESEA working with Valve and handing over their AC logs. The problem with VAC is that by its nature it is not an intrusive anti-cheat as it would raise too many privacy concerns for Valve, so they have never needed to delve further.
ESEA's anti-cheat is a bit more intrusive in what it looks for regarding memory injections, but even these can be manipulated to a certain extent down to kernel level. The only way an anti-cheat could be near-as-dammit foolproof would be to monitor all process instructions down to kernel level, and to that would take a fair slice of computing power which would only result in players getting annoyed by it. It's a viscious circle.
ESEA's anti-cheat is a bit more intrusive in what it looks for regarding memory injections, but even these can be manipulated to a certain extent down to kernel level. The only way an anti-cheat could be near-as-dammit foolproof would be to monitor all process instructions down to kernel level, and to that would take a fair slice of computing power which would only result in players getting annoyed by it. It's a viscious circle.
Still awaiting these demo's of the prolific hackers in every game; oh sorry I forgot they are undetectable; ******. I can at least get a good inclining if someone "knows" where I am from watching a demo. Believe me I know how to hide a wh, as I suspect most long term FPS afficiando's do.
The fact for me remains I went through a spait in this game of thinking I was getting beaten by wallers. It was usually the top fragger who I had determined "knew" where I was all the time and it became a habit of mine to simply report them. I then started watching the demo's first and 99% of the times I believed I was getting wh'd, I was most definately not.
Obviously there are hack users in the game, it would be stupid to think otherwise, I can only state that after I actually started watching the demos, I found I was hugely overestimating the problem.
The fact for me remains I went through a spait in this game of thinking I was getting beaten by wallers. It was usually the top fragger who I had determined "knew" where I was all the time and it became a habit of mine to simply report them. I then started watching the demo's first and 99% of the times I believed I was getting wh'd, I was most definately not.
Obviously there are hack users in the game, it would be stupid to think otherwise, I can only state that after I actually started watching the demos, I found I was hugely overestimating the problem.
Oh crap, looks like I bought the old one then. Which one is the new one? Might send this one back when it arrives now, if I could have had it for £25 a little while ago!
so in the FK line you have
FK'14
FK1
FK2 (recently announced - few weeks away yet)
differences are.
FK'14 - Uses an avago 3090 sensor, has more of a plastic coating
FK1 - Uses an avago 3310 sensor, has a rubbery soft touch coating
FK2 - Uses an avago 3310 sensor, assuming it has a rubbery touch coating.
but here are some images to show you size differences between them all
I just think that saying that many people hack is way OTT. I agree with what you are saying, mostly, but you are giving these 'hackers' way, way too much credit.
Do you play competitively? And by that, I don't mean MM as that is essentially playing on public servers. If not, then you are absolutely giving them too much credit, as hacking in MM is generally someone who isn't very subtle about it at all. Not someone that has spent an abundance of time 'honing' their hacking skills to make it look natural.
If we are talking about high level competitive play then of course it's a completely different situation, since there is a lot more at stake, real money. Not someone looking to get 'global elite' to increase their epeen.
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Humm ok, I got confused between the FK14 and FK2! I thought the FK '14 was the newest one, hence why I pailed £50 for it. Tempted to send it back and get the FK1, not sure!
I have quite big hands, I'm used to an MX518 which is quite big. Decisions!
if you have larger hands then the FK1 would suit you more than the FK2 or the FK'14.
paying £50 for each i would go for the FK1 hands down due to it being newer. having a better sensor.
i mean ive not used either of them but when i want to buy something i tend to spend copious amounts of time reading everything there is to know, the zowie mice peaked my interest and will be my next purchase.
so basically the FK'14 is by no means a bad mouse but for the same price you can get the newer version.
paying £50 for each i would go for the FK1 hands down due to it being newer. having a better sensor.
i mean ive not used either of them but when i want to buy something i tend to spend copious amounts of time reading everything there is to know, the zowie mice peaked my interest and will be my next purchase.
so basically the FK'14 is by no means a bad mouse but for the same price you can get the newer version.
I loved my FK1 and preferred the buttons over the DeathAdder, even the sensor felt better; placebo, I don't know. Though I just could not push through the cramps I was getting from the thinner mouse, having used the wider DeathAdder for over six years. I have got gi hands.
Soldato
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- 19 Jun 2012
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I would agree, it is easy in the heat of the moment to think someone is hacking, then after quiet reflection of a demo see the mistakes you made and how they capitalised on it. But that does not change the fact that playing discretely with a WH is possible and it can be very hard for any onlooker to know if a person is using one.
It is interesting that I have heard people say the exact opposite about CoD. They didn't believe there were many hackers until they started watching the demos/kill cams. The other interesting thing about CoD is that not everyone that is using the hacks is top of the leaderboard. There are actually people out there using hacks who are still atrocious. Indeed, I didn't ban a guy from my server simply because even with his hacks he was terrible! (he was also a really nice guy).
But you kind of undermine your own point in a way, because on the one hand you are telling us you know how to hide a WH and so do most other FPS players, then you imply they are easy to spot.........
I agree, many of the hackers are easy to spot ragers who download their hacks and have no idea how to use them or even have any idea how to play the game properly. But that is not to say there are not also many other players who do have good game sense and who are competent at being discrete. They will be the guys playing comp, using their hacks to gain a subtle but significant edge which is what I alluded to in my previous post. When a player is good already, it does not take much of a hack to ensure they get the upper hand and swing the game balance in their favour. This is highlighted by the recent pro hacking scandal.
I have played comp in other games, but not in CSGO (yet). Whilst each game is different, the mechanics of FPS shooters and the hacks that are generally preferable are similar. It is why we see, for example, the preference of WH over aim bots - they are easier to hide. Initially, anyways, until the crosshair tweakable bots were being churned out, but those kind of hacks tend to be best used by half decent players to start with.
But the fundamental crux of a closet hacking mindset is that most of them do not want to be caught because they want to appear good, appear dominant and appear like it is all down to their skill.
But I do think, to some extent, that hacking has become a self fulfilling prophecy. People believe (in many cases wrongly) that someone is hacking and decide if they can't beat them, join them. There is also a certain level of anonymity in modern FPS games due to match making and the sheer number of people online. Back in the quake 3 days, you had smaller server communities and generally everyone knew eatch other quite well and provided support. I remember playing Q3 FFA in the Gifford servers and a new guy came in and he didnt know how to rocket jump. I am not kidding, the entire server stopped playing, met this guy in the mid part of the map and showed him what to do. The entire server - like 8-9 players or something just rocket jumping about and showing him where is best and giving advice on timing and technique etc. This was not an isolated incident. It happened a lot. To this day I have never seen a community as supportive as that. Now it is all "L2P noob"
I just wonder if modern games had that kind of support from players whether there would be less haxusations? I feel there would be less, personally, because in taking time to teach people you start to show them how you are achieving your advantage. But I think it is no surprise that as online gaming has become vastly more popular that the amount of people making haxusations has exploded. But, by the same logic, you could also argue that it is also not unreasonable to reach the conclusion that it has caused a huge increase in hackers too. When you have hacking websites with multi million dollar profits and thousands upon thousands of subscribers you really have to wonder just how many hackers are out there.
Personally, I dont think the numbers of people closet hacking are as high as previous posters have said. Most of the hacking numpties rage and get banned.
But the recent scandals show, that even in pro teams under the utmost scrutiny, people can and do get away with hacking. I do not think it is a giant leap of imagination to say that there could be undetected hackers in any given match. But I suppose the real questions are what benefits to their hacks give them, and what are the stakes?
Other than pro teams, the benefits of the hacks are probably not worth the cost, not without it being blatantly obvious. I think most players will understand that and avoid hacking. Others, though, are the 1% minority that will insist on spending their money on hacks. But given that peak player base in CSGO is 250k, statistically that still equates to 2,500 hackers online at peak time. I'm not sure how many servers there are in CSGO at peak times, but what would that potentially equate to? 1 in 5 servers that potentially have a hacker? 1 in 10? I dont know, but it is an interesting supposition, even based on a 1% figure.
