Dark Rock 4 owners - i need re-assurance.

[Plec]

Having a nightmare of a new build - short version is that the NVMe, once in the case, will not install windows but outside of the case it's fine (also, i can install windows on a standard SATA SSD inside the case)

After comprehensive troubleshooting/bread boarding (i have 3 computers to borrow from) - i'm leaning towards the Dark Rock 4 applying too much pressure around the socket and interfering with the operation of the NMVe when screwed into case. i.e. due to forcing the MB to level out - but there's no visible warping of the MB - but there will be forces around the socket given fitting and right next to NVMe slot.

I've fitted a couple before but i'm now second guessing myself about the starting gap between the retaining bar and the socket bracket. Re-assure me that this the standard gap before tightening the bar to meet the bracket?

Link (can click on pic to zoom in):

https://imgur.com/75LJZvl

I'm in the process of loosening brackets ever so slightly and will tighten to bar to bracket once again - finger tight. But would like my niggle stomped on...


Spec:

MSI B450 Tom MAX
3700X
3600MHz Crucial memory (not clocked)
Dark Rock 4
1Tb WD NVMe
2 x Crucial 1TB SATA - have not been attached.
GTX 1070 (from old build)
Antec HCG 850W (excessive but bargain in fire sale - less than year old)
bequiet Pure Base 500 case

@doyll - would appreciate your experienced eye on the above linked image if you have the time and hands on experience with DR 4.

 

[Plec]

Yes, NVMe works fine outside of case with DR 4 still strapped on. It installs inside, but then becomes corrupt after a couple of restarts/driver installs. (Not so, outside of case.)

I should also add, the NVMe worked fine on the same model board in a 3600 system - no windows corruption on install (tested yesterday eveing).

 

[Plec]

Strange one. Nothing on motherboard, cooler mount, etc. is touching case when installed?

I like your idea of loosening cooler mount. Problem might be motherboard flex with cooler mount, but might also be mobo flex elsewhere .. maybe intermitent short to mounting standoff.

What happens if you just set motherboard into case with mounting screws not tightened up? To be on safe side I would screw at least a few mobo mount screws in loose so it can't move around.

Nope, nothing touching (as far as i can tell) the Pure Base is surprisingly roomy. The back plate on the Tomahawk is annoying, but no more than others i've had to install motherboards against - nothing bent, curled over.

I've remounted the Dark Rock - bracket and retaining bar finger tight - and re-seated CPU and this time installed NVMe after DR 4 install - so that it adapts to any slight movement that the board may have experienced - not sure if i did this before. (Used Dental floss to remove fan brackets - worked really well, no marking.)

I'll try minimum number of screws tip - plus i may swap out the middle support riser for a screw one, as it's right next to the NVMe and the board may benefit from the additional levelling it may add (pee'ing into the wind here - but may help)

I won't be installing the DR 4 fan straightaway - it can run passive for Windows install, until i know everything is OK, or not :s

Thanks for responding to shout-out @doyll - did you agree that the gap between bar and bracket was normal before tightening? As mentioned, I've fitted them before - but doubting myself now given the issue.

 

[Plec]

And without spring loaded screws there's no sure limit for force caused by mounting system of cooler itself.
So that could be pushing board nearer the edge with vertical position then going over it.

Hey @EsaT

This is the theory (nagging doubt) i'm working on and fits in with all the troubleshooting i've done - plus persistent doubt when problem appeared (never fitted a DR 4 with an NVMe combined before. And, rather telling that it works out of the case and installs fine within the case with a standard SSD. But, I'm really careful not to over tighten - which is why i'm questioning the engineering of this particular unit (although, gap looked OK to me - but if tensile strength of bar is stiffer than normal - it could be an issue once clamped to bracket - even finger tight.)

@Quartz's theory was a good shout (thanks btw, @Quartz) - but virtually dismissed with all my troubleshooting - but obviously not dismissed completely and will be using minimal screws when i install again tomorrow.

* @EsaT - did you get your camera, my advice would have worked, but would have probably got you on a terrorist watch-list - swings-and-roundabouts?

 

[Plec]

DP

 

[Plec]

You could try testing case on its side with board in same position as outside the case.
That would be pretty darn sure confirmation that it's stress from cooler's mounting and twisting force from its weight, which causes the problem.)

Sorry, I should have clarified - all my testing inside the case was done on it's side - ease of access as much as anything when troubleshooting.

Shop hasn't gotten second shipment of cameras yet, so no need to worry about getting it.
Anyway special laws are being taken into use first time since WW2 and schools are closed after tomorrow etc.
Though at least don't think there will be internal limits for travel of people unless epidemy takes turn to worse. (so far only one elderly person in ICU)

Everywhere is in a state of flux - theory's (behavioural 'science') being stood on their head continually. Ideally, if they could eliminate ambiguity with their decisions - it would help stop certain people's knee jerk reacting to flip-flopping policy.

 

[Plec]

I wonder if turning case the right way up would change anything.
Now that would be hilarious if it started working...

My system wouldn't think so when i decorate the wall with it - after taking the pee for 2 days.

Maybe it would be time to dust out season boxes and do marathon...

You may have the luxury of time soon. I can recommend Rick and Morty, if you've not watched it - a polar opposite to Babylon 5 from looking it up (not sure what i was watching during that period - probably South Park).

 

[Plec]

Update: (@orbitalwalsh - i'll update 'conversation' when completed but will keep this thread updated because if it's what i think it is it may prove useful to other members in future searches.)

So, connected LAN and did an install with my 2 sticks installed, at XMP (3600MHz), UEFI and updated drivers. So far no Windows corruption and no weird little screen flashes/glitches to indicate something maybe amiss. It never achieved this inside the case.

My, working premise, is that the DR 4 was/is applying considerable around the socket and with the NVMe socket so close it's skewing connection slightly. This was only apparent when the motherboard was secured into the case and the slight bowing (not visible) becomes forced to level out - borking the NVMe slot/drive.

To try and remedy this i've: reseated the DR 4 - finger tight again - and this time installed the NVMe after its installation so that its fitted/adjusts with the slight warp (if any - again, none visible). But, i'm hoping the re-seating of DR 4 will prove enough.

The other change i'm making is that the Pure Base 500 comes with a support stand off for the middle riser. I'll be swapping this out for a regular riser/screw as this is close to the NVMe slot and screwing down this area may help with levelling - theory being that only screwing the outer edges may exacerbate any slight warping - pushing board towards middle. A middle fixing should even this out if it was an issue. Yep, i'm pee'ing in the wind...

Got to get some work done - but will update later once i've got it fitted.

 

[Plec]

@Plec- sure i've got Alphacool M.2 to PCIe 3 x4 drive spare somewhere . might be able to connect to another PCIe slot and avoid the m.2

or... X570 Gaming x for £135 considering now OCUK charging £105 for the toma max....

Or, this hopefully works and i don't have to contemplate an alternative. That's what my hand is clutching these straws for...

/fears case fixings may throw a spanner in the works...

Cheers for offer though, bud - and i would consider the Elite if i had to swap or maybe even wait for B550s (but never relish playing with an immature BIOS). But, a working Tomahawk would be preferable...

 

[Plec]

remember , vendors do X570 and B550 first then B450 and X470 afterwards. AMD change the microcode, Vendors don't have full details to it - you'd think they would but this isn't the case then you get all the issues in the past . Vendors fix the new then work on the old . sort rocking up to Q4 and stable bios may get a bit crazy with Zen3 coding

If I updated to Zen 3 (not planned, or needed) - i would update the board too, purely out of interest in new board - but can't see that happening unless this build proves temperamental 'if' i get it working. The one nagging doubt i'll have for a few weeks - if it sparks to life in the case.

Hit one snag - the bequiet Pure base didn't come with spare risers so i'm searching for some Corsair ones, that I've safely stored somewhere - so safely, that i can't find them :/

 

[Plec]

Maybe it's case causing distortion, not cooler mount .. assuming that is cause which I doubt. Is case motherboard panel and standoffs on one plane? If they are not then they may be stressing the motherboard so it isn't flat.

Yes, they are - but usual cut outs and indentations throughout. But is still under suspicion...

I've replaced middle unthreaded standoff/riser (spacer) with a threaded one - the one near NVMe drive - so I will be able to secure that properly. I'm hoping that screwing down this area will level out any bowing that only having outer screws may introduce/exacerbate in the middle of the board (my logic anyway).

Also, refitted case back-plate - still looks awkward - but as mentioned before, pretty standard fair.

Plase keep us posted. Really curious to know what the problem is.

Will do - i'm looking harder at the case - but still feel it's a combo of cooler and case fixing.

If this fails - i'll try stock cooler, but don't fancy it's chances of survival if it fails again as i haven't really got the time to be troubleshooting such a whimsical issue. I normally isolate the core of the problem within an hour (if hardware and standard build) - this is starting to grate, as could be a combo of factors...

Sod it, i'll take an 30 minutes in hour and get it in the case, before i lose daylight. Bare bones setup - and see what happens. Won't know conclusively until after a couple of days and multiple restarts even if it passes a few restarts at the beginning.

JOY!

 

[Plec]

****!

Installed into case - screws finger tight, minimal cables and after second reboot Windows becomes corrupted (did connect case power switch, wish i hadn't - but nothing else)

I'll try the stock cooler when i get time tomorrow - and throw it in the case as that will determine if it's the DR 4/case combo.

Never experienced this before and i've built with Silver Arrows with ridiculous central wrench/nut method :/

 

[Plec]

Hey, @Danny75

Favouring one of my guitars at the moment mulling things over - i may have a scotch in easy reach (long day)

I'm glad this strange phenomenon happened to you, Plec. Because I know you'll want to get to the bottom of it.

I definitely prefer remotely diagnosing the obscure than experiencing it myself. I realise i may come across as tenacious; sticking with a forum member throughout their issues, no matter how obscure or inexperienced, but at least i get to: carry on with my work, use it as a distraction while in shop's waiting rooms (wife, clothes shopping), or kicking back sat in my favourite area of the garden with kids etc...

However, this will be the third strip down and i still have a few things to eliminate and all are time consuming and some introduce the possibility of damage -as i may have to strip two systems for access - components everywhere... Ho-hum.

If i can find the time tomorrow i'll attempt the following (i'm working remotely at the moment so i can dip in and out - i'm not symptomatic, it's a new department policy due to present unfolding events):

• remove backplate - a quick reinstall with it removed - but this really is a reach, but at least it's simple.
• different/stock cooler. If this works, I may cut my losses and buy a Mugen 5 - very lightweight, and simple fix - but nowhere near as cool and quiet, regardless of reviews (i like my silence when working under medium CPU loads - and the Mugan, although excellent value, doesn't cut it for an experienced ear/plus my work loads.. Kids have them in their systems.).
• if the stock cooler fails then i'll try a different case. If this works, then I will be in a pickle diagnostic wise - but will have to point OcUK to this thread as it could be board/component specific - maybe even 'my board' specific - as it may have a slight manufacturing weakness in one spot. So, this wouldn't automatically suggest the Pure Base 500 as culprit, even with the evidence to hand (hope that makes sense)
• if it doesn't work in a different case then all roads seemingly lead to the motherboard (considering breadboard results) - and after this amount of testing i'll probably be ready pitch it at the wall. Again, i'll have to direct OcUK to this thread as it feels too unique/specific - again may not be able to be replicated on a test bench.

So, a pessimistic theme underlying my future troubleshooting results - even if i 'identify' the problem i'm not 100% certain it could be replicated. I have a nagging doubt i have one of those rare, ambiguous issues that will be hard to simulate in a testbench/environment (very rare technicians have the time to cover/replicate the fault, i 'may' have). I've worked on a few threads with the same feel to this over the years and it took weeks for retailer to identify what i had remotely identified via a forum (a corrupt i920 - a guy called Davyboy - nightmare scenario comes to mind.)

*Feel free to add anything i may be overlooking (even the obscure) - i'm too close to the problem now and there's a chance I may overlook the bleedin' obvious.

 

[Plec]

Just to clarify from what I've read so far. It works with the DR4 fitted with the mobo lying flat on a surface. I doesn't work in the case with the case lying on it's side. What happens when the cooler is fitted and the case is standing on its feet.

Yes, it works flat when breadboarded - out of case. And, yes, same results when upright, unfortunately

Could the components be pre-stressed to work only in this orientation? Does it work with the case standing on its top, or back or front?

They're designed to work in either orientation - vertically or horizontally (if that is what you mean?).

 

[Plec]

No coughing allowed.

Heh, my kids would unnerve you - colds (had colds before media rejoiced in whipping some people into a frenzy).

We need a troubleshooting party at your gaff.

An extra pair of hands would be very handy with these well designed compact cases - and ridiculously hard fittings; poor motherboard tolerances, as far as i can tell, with my Seasonic. Plus, black on black makes it impossible to accurately see what you're doing - even with mandatory geeky headlamp adorned. I don't have windowed cases - so luminous green motherboards would suit me just fine at the moment.

Nothing i'm not used to - but time is a luxury at present and troubleshooting with the odd 15 minutes, here and there, is not ideal.

 

[Plec]

I keep mulling it over in my head I the more I think the less likely I think it's cooler mounting causing distortion. CPU IHS is more of a load spreader / controller than a heat spreader. It's size matches the edges of socket so it' structural height supports the edges of cooler on edges of IHS and this is on edges of CPU socket. Mount back plate to cooler has mounting load centered on socket. Mounting studs only pull cooler base tight on IHS and IHS edges keep it from deforming socket. Clamping action / pressure is all on IHS to edges of socket, then through motherboard to backplate. There is no clamping action that could deform motherboard .. assuming mount is functioning properly. It's not uncommon for backplate to be loose until cooler is mounted and tightened down and drawng it's center tight against back of socket.

Appreciate your thoughts, @doyll - all helps.

It's nothing i've experienced before, recently -other than years ago and that was with users being over aggressive with tightening the, then, new monolithic coolers. And even then the problem would present in a different manner - but with new tech/designs this may be the new norm (most builds with this board use smaller coolers or standard SATA SSDs, so not enough data out there for comparison.

However, although I agree in principle with your logic - the m.2 slot on the Tomahawk board is sat right next to the socket (inbetween that and the GPU) and of course the DIMM slots (the usual suspects with cooler issues). My thinking at the moment is that it's applied just enough imperceptible distortion that when evened out by the case fixing, it is either causing a problem with the m.2 slot or, just as likely, the DIMM slots. The weird fault i'm experiencing is equally applicable to both - memory especially causing weird anomalies that are sometimes difficult to diagnose.

Only option i have is to first swap out cooler and install stock and reinstall - if that passes, either my DR 4 has slight engineering issue, or the motherboard has a slight tolerance weakness, or the case is warped - but it appears level.

I have other tests to do if that fails - but will attempt cooler swap out in an hour. Tempted to try slackening the DR 4 some more - but it's a PITA taking the fan on and off each time. Plus, the stock cooler would be quite definitive if it works (Mugan 5 sold out :/).

 

[Plec]

Grabbed 10 minuted and whipped off the DR 4 and installed stock cooler - will test tonight when i have more time.

Things that i noted:

• Board perfectly level when sat on risers - once screws taken out.
• No warping but a slight discernible lift on side of the board without cooler - but very slight (again - nothing that i haven't seen many times before but will take into consideration).

Will post back once i've ran some tests later tonight.

I empithize with you. This kind of problem can be almost impossible to isolate and resolve. Realistically the motherboard should be able to flex some without causing problems .. but who knows. It could be anything (I don't know how many possible causes) from defective motherboard, motherboar shorting out into standoffs, defective RAM, defective RAM socket, defective mobo standoff heights, defective M.2, defective M.2 socket and on and on and on. All I'm getting at is I don't thihnk it's CPU cooler mount problem. At least not with quality cooler mount like be quiet! uses. Problem could just as easily ber flexing RAM sockets or M2 socket.

Yes, agreed - i'm in for the long haul. Or, very short - as stock is running out and i may have to throw money at the solution. Not my ideal - but difficult times. Trouble is if stock cooler works - quite rightly MB should be identified as the fault/weakness, unsure what OcUKs take would be on this.

I would also suggest using a SSD or even HDD on cable to be sure it's not M.2 related.

Good luck! Hopefully our next post will have solution.

Tested a standard SSD - and that works fine with DR 4 installed, which is why i'm leaning so heavily towards a mounting/socket issue. But agree that the MB should tolerate a quality engineered cooler.

And, thanks - i'll take all the luck i can at the moment (not sure the DR 4 will tolerate being taken off many more times.)

 

[Plec]

You have determined system works fine with normal SSD, but not M.2 SSD.

The NMVe drive has been tested and passed in a separate (almost identical) system - Mugan 5 attached. So, that rules it out as much as it can be in these situations.

I know how frustrating these issues can be. Don't let it get you down. Take a break and take a walk, have a cuppa, whatever mellows you out, then try again.

I have more than enough work to distract me - i wish i had more time to devout to it. In reality i should have isolated the problem by now. But, it's either board or cooler - but agreed board should cope. But, as you rightly mentioned, so many other factors could also contribute, which is why i'm losing motivation and looking at sending MB back if it fails with stock cooler.

We'll be step further tonight - i hope...

*Galling taking off a quality DR4 and sticking on stock...

 

[Plec]

Fact that system works fine with standard SSD but nto with M.2 SSD causes me to believe problem is M.2 related with nothing to do with what cooler is being used. I could be wrong but that seems most logical cause at this time. I don't suppose you have another M.2 SSD to test with.

I do but would mean wiping a system - plus, drive worked in breadboarded system with DR 4 attached. But, it would be useful to eliminate (but a real PITA) - but i'll try stock tonight and decide from there.

I suppose you could just use SSD and not use M.2.

Considering this - but would be admitting defeat...

 

[Plec]

Even if stock cooler allows M.2 to function properly I don't think that mae DR4 the problem. To me problem is M.2 SSD connection. While M.2 SSD may for with stock cooler, I think it's likely to fail sometime in the future.

Regrettably, I agree to a point. But, memory belies it's ability to compromise an install/stability in the way it presents. And, even in this instance, corrupted driver installs fits within it's diverse idiosyncrasies - and has well known vulnerabilities to 'Arthur C Clarke' type coolers (although, again, agree this shouldn't be an issue). But, there is always that outside chance that the DR 4 was milled incorrectly - but the odds side heavily with poorly printed motherboard.

I don't see it as defeat. At most it's a compromise with end result being a working solution to problem.

Yeah, my brain struggles with that one - but with present world issues, i may make an exception and lose £110 on a redundant NVMe (i pass things on - don't sell).

*still not had time to test, maybe very late tonight :/