Darren Pencille murder trial

Screeeech · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:37

I've been following the trial of this guy, after he allegedly murdered a 51 year old IT consultant on a train near Guildford with a knife, in front of his son - in a frenzied attack following a dispute.

I imagine he'll be found guilty, but what I didn't expect - was the evidence about how the defendant attempted to deescalate the situation and how the victim did seem to want a confrontation, the CCTV footage clearly shows the defendant walking away from the quarrel - where he's quickly followed by the victim, who ultimately meets his fate.

What's also interesting is how the witnesses on the train, report how the victim essentially 'egged on' and 'patronised' the defendant, leading up to the attack.

The defendant denies murder, but admits to stabbing the victim in 'self defense', which is obviously ridiculous as it wouldn't be reasonable force against an unarmed man, (then there's the possession of a knife issue...)

So yeah, whilst I imagine he'll be found guilty - it didn't play out the way I expected, seems the victim wanted some action and paid the price...

neckbeardthethird · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:40

Horrific case, lord knows what the victim was thinking following the man down the train when he had his kid with him. I've read elsewhere that people think Pencille may get away with manslaughter because of the victim's actions... find that hard to believe personally.

G-MAN2004 · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:42

Victim was an idiot for walking after him, but stabbing someone 18 times is just utterly insane. If you get angry enough to do that just from a stupid confrontation on a train, then you don't ever deserve to be a part of society.

dowie · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:47

Screeeech said:
So yeah, whilst I imagine he'll be found guilty - it didn't play out the way I expected, seems the victim wanted some action and paid the price...

Seemed more like he was having a go at him, defendant being aggressive/rude etc.. and the victim, rather than dropping the matter and ignoring it, follows him to the next carriage to give him a piece of his mind etc... rather a bad choice but I guess maybe he was feeling put out and wanted to object to how he'd been spoken to etc..

It certainly didn't seem like he was looking for a physical fight and he kept his distance from the defendant in the next carriage, was just talking to him.

Thing is, talking down to a "roadman" type like that, making them feel silly etc.. certainly has a high chance of provoking a violent reaction.

cheesyboy · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:48

Appreciate the OP - I'd seen the headlines but hadn't looked into it at all. Video certainly gives some context.

Screeeech said:
which is obviously ridiculous as it wouldn't be reasonable force against an unarmed man

I dunno. The dude was a bit of a monster, and seemed pretty determined to exert his size over the other guy. If he felt threatened, as well he might, then it might be reasonable to use pretty heavy force. I think he'll go down, can't be carrying knives and stabbing so many times, but the victim was certainly the aggressor for the most part.

rebel rebel · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:52

The pointing and gesturing from the murderer suggests he was the aggressor.

cheesyboy · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:53

rebel rebel said:
The pointing and gesturing from the murderer suggests he was the aggressor.

Yeah? What about the bit where he literally leaves the train carriage to get away from the situation?

dowie · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:55

cheesyboy said:
I think he'll go down, can't be carrying knives and stabbing so many times, but the victim was certainly the aggressor for the most part.

There is no certainty that the victim was an aggressor at any point. Talking to someone, objecting to something, having an argument doesn't make someone an "aggressor" nor justify a violent response of any kind. If the victim had threatened him verbally then sure, but we don't know that.

I mean if someone on a train called you a ****, say and then went to the next train carriage you're allowed to go to the next carriage too and tell them you're not happy about what they just said and indeed tell them you think they're out of order etc..etc.. that doesn't make you an "aggressor" nor necessitate any physical response let alone use of a knife.

We don't know what conversation was had in that carriage but it seems likely, given the victim was seemingly on the receiving end of some verbal anger/abuse in the first carriage, some sort of objection to the defendants behaviour.

rebel rebel · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:55

cheesyboy said:
Yeah? What about the bit where he literally leaves the train carriage to get away from the situation?

You're right, he deserved to be killed for following him to get an apology. :rolleyes:

cheesyboy · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:56

rebel rebel said:
You're right, he deserved to be killed for following him to get an apology.

That wasn't what we were arguing - you said he was the aggressor, I suggested that leaving the carriage meant he wasn't.

dowie · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:57

cheesyboy said:
That wasn't what we were arguing - you said he was the aggressor, I suggested that leaving the carriage meant he wasn't.

I'd say that stabbing someone to death meant that he is.

I don't think anyone has claimed that leaving the carriage in itself was an aggressive act!

BowdonUK · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:58

Based off the video evidence there could be a case of self defense. The victim was tall and bigger than the offender and kept following him in to the next carriage.

I've never stabbed anyone but I'd imagine its not like hollywood were one stab and the person either dies or falls over. One stab probably doesn't stop someone, so I'd imagine once the stabbing started he'd have to continue until it slowed the guy down.

He shouldnt have been carrying a knife to begin with though.

cheesyboy · 27 Jun 2019 at 14:58

dowie said:
I mean if someone on a train called you a ****, say and then went to the next train carriage you're allowed to go to the next carriage too and tell them you're not happy about what they just said and indeed tell them you think they're out of order etc..etc.. that doesn't make you an "aggressor" nor necessitate any physical response let alone use of a knife.

I would say that you are definitely 'an aggressor' in that scenario. You can be passive and let it go, or you can be aggressive and follow-up.

Minstadave · 27 Jun 2019 at 15:00

BowdonUK said:
Based off the video evidence there could be a case of self defense. The victim was tall and bigger than the offender and kept following him in to the next carriage.

I've never stabbed anyone but I'd imagine its not like hollywood were one stab and the person either dies or falls over. One stab probably doesn't stop someone, so I'd imagine once the stabbing started he'd have to continue until it slowed the guy down.

He shouldnt have been carrying a knife to begin with though.

That would never wash in the UK legal system. You cant stab someone to death because they're bigger than you and being a meanie.

rebel rebel · 27 Jun 2019 at 15:00

rebel rebel said:
You're right, he deserved to be killed for following him to get an apology.

But asking for an apology isn't being aggressive, look how he is holding onto the bar with his head tilted, compared to the other guy pointing in his face and pacing around.
Yes the victim was stupid, and should at some stage realised he wasn't going to get an apology, but to say he was the more aggressive is a bit of a stretch.

cheesyboy · 27 Jun 2019 at 15:02

dowie said:
I'd say that stabbing someone to death meant that he is.

I don't think anyone has claimed that leaving the carriage in itself was an aggressive act!

This started with me saying that perhaps self defence could be a reasonable argument for violence here, even if stabbing him to death was taking it much too far and the dude would likely go down for it.

If we're discussing the self-defence argument for defending Pencille's action (stabbing), then we can't take his action (the stabbing) as being a contributor to the circumstance of self-defence, can we.

dowie · 27 Jun 2019 at 15:03

cheesyboy said:
I would say that you are definitely 'an aggressor' in that scenario. You can be passive and let it go, or you can be aggressive and follow-up.

Why? What is inherently aggressive about it to the point it requires a physical response?

It can be an aggressive act if you're threatening or intimidating someone, and that can prompt a physical response, but it isn't inherently so. I don't think you have any basis to claim: "the victim was certainly the aggressor" unless you know that he's said/done something threatening or even just abusive (if you're going for a broader scope of "aggression" here).

Going to the next carriage and saying "look, I don't know what your problem was back there but that was rude and uncalled for, all we did was ask you to not block the aisle, I think you're being really unreasonable, I have my son with me etc..etc." or something along those lines isn't an aggressive act for example.

BowdonUK · 27 Jun 2019 at 15:08

Minstadave said:
That would never wash in the UK legal system. You cant stab someone to death because they're bigger than you and being a meanie.

But you can use a weapon if someone is bigger than you, and your defending yourself. Then the question would be, is a knife too deadly? I'm guessing yes. I think he'll get sent down for manslaughter.

cheesyboy · 27 Jun 2019 at 15:10

dowie said:
Going to the next carriage and saying "look, I don't know what your problem was back there but that was rude and uncalled for, all we did was ask you to not block the aisle, I think you're being really unreasonable, I have my son with me etc..etc." or something along those lines isn't an aggressive act for example.

Of course it is.

Minstadave · 27 Jun 2019 at 15:10

BowdonUK said:
But you can use a weapon if someone is bigger than you, and your defending yourself. Then the question would be, is a knife too deadly? I'm guessing yes. I think he'll get sent down for manslaughter.

Whilst no lawyer I'm thinking its clean cut murder, unless he has a decent legal team.