DDR3>DDR2 Performance Decrease...AMD Hexacore

[Someone]

[Off Topic]

Originally Posted by Someone
but to solve this you go to the ram settings in the bios and select a lower divider which reduces the ram speed so that it is no longer overclocked

Because of this the ram will not limit your overclock.

On an AMD system this is true

On an Intel® LGA775 system using an nVidia chipset this is true . . . but sadly on an Intel® LGA775 system using an Intel® chipset this is false!

Big Wayne can you expand on this last statement of yours as my last motherboard had an intel chipset & I could select lower memory dividers (it was a x48 rather than a p45 so not sure if that meant it had more overclocking options). As far as I was aware almost any board that let you overclock the ram / change ram settings had the option to lower memory multiplyers including boards with the intel chipsets.

@ sastusbulbas

You may get a reasonable stable sufficient OC with DDR2 800, but DDR2 1066 will give you more room to play with with a better chance of success. I have not seen any real reason to worry about 1.1 sync with memory.

With the above statement regarding DDR2 1066 do you mean only if trying to keep a 1:1 sync between the memory & fsb? If so then I dont think bongas needs to worry about this at this stage since as you mentioned & I have also found keeping the 1:1 sync only makes a difference in performance of a couple of % if anything. Also I agree that bongas does not need ddr3 at this stage on a 775 platform. But if he will be upgrading the ram at a later date then DDR3-1600 will be the ram to get so that it can be used in his next build be it intel or amd.

 

[Big.Wayne]

[Off Topic]

Hello Someone,

my last motherboard had an intel chipset & I could select lower memory dividers (it was a x48 rather than a p45 so not sure if that meant it had more overclocking options).

It's not possible on any modern Intel® LGA775 chipset to run the memory slower than the FSB . . . the slowest possible is sync [1:1] . .

I suspect you had the memory on an "upwards" [3:2] or [6:5] multiplier and reduced it to [1:1] sync . .

As far as I was aware almost any board that let you overclock the ram / change ram settings had the option to lower memory multiplyers including boards with the intel chipsets

Tha last Intel® chipset I remember that allowed the memory to run slower than the FSB was back in the socket 478 days . . . and AFAIK the only Intel® LGA775 chipset that could do this was made by nVidia® . . .

The Intel® LGA775 chipset is "optimal" with the memory running "twice" as fast as the FSB and is slowed down enough with the memory running [1:1] sync let alone lower . . .

266MHz FSB
533MHz MEM

1066MHz System Bus
1066MHz DDR2

 

[Someone]

Big Wayne thanks I forgot about that with intel boards. Bongas has ddr2 800 ram so that sould mean that he can raise the fsb to 400mhz and still be 1:1 with the ram. The E7400 has a 10.5 x multiplyer so that means he can theoretically get to a clock speed of 4200mhz before the ram starts to be overclocked which should be enough & may not even be possible if the stock cooler is being used.

 

[bongas]

[Off Topic]


The Intel® LGA775 chipset is "optimal" with the memory running "twice" as fast as the FSB and is slowed down enough with the memory running [1:1] sync let alone lower . . .

What do you mean by that ?

How can a chipset run optimal, it will either be an optimal OC of the cpu or the optimal OC of the ram......not the chipset.

If you really meant chipset then all i would say is that i did not get it !

 

[bongas]

OC UK FORUM

WHAT the hell...can any ONE EXPLAIN IT TO ME THAT WEATHER I CAN OC MY PC or not WITH MY KINGSTON VALUE RAM WHICH HAS A STOCK SPEED OF 800MHZ.

i am really fed up of all of you...cant you people PLEASE advice me about my ram relating to oc my cpu. it has been such a long time since i have sstarted this thread but NO ONE SEAMS to answer a simple question.

HOW MUCH WILL I OC MY CPU considering all the factors to be open EG:

CPU cooler = nitrogen cooling
CPU chip = the best q9400 ON EARTH
board = p5qc
ram = kingston 2x2gb @800mhz.(without heat sinks and therefore its a value ram)

HELP
HEL[
HELP
HELP
HELP

 

[Big.Wayne]

[Off Topic]

hi, i have never had a quad core before and my current board is dg41rq from intel which does not support oveclocking.

i am looking forward to upgrade my board with a one that can over clock a q9400 cpu till AT LEAST 3.5ghz (easily)

[LGA775] Board for Overclocking thread

• Intel® Core™2 Duo E7400 (10.5 x 266) 2793MHz
• Intel® Core™2 Duo E7400 (10.5 x 400) 4200MHz

However if you decide to take the route of picking up either a QuadCore Q9400 or a QuadCore Q9550 then your DDR2-800 *will* limit your potential overclocks

• Intel® Core™2 Quad Q9400 (8 x 333) 2664MHz
• Intel® Core™2 Quad Q9400 (8 x 400) 3200MHz

• Intel® Core™2 Quad Q9400 (8.5 x 333) 2830.5MHz
• Intel® Core™2 Quad Q9550 (8.5 x 400) 3400MHz

Bongas has ddr2 800 ram so that sould mean that he can raise the fsb to 400mhz and still be 1:1 with the ram. The E7400 has a 10.5 x multiplyer so that means he can theoretically get to a clock speed of 4200mhz

Hello Someone,

I think this is getting a bit confusing for everyone involved! . . . the only time DDR2-1066 has been mentioned was in relation to bongas "if" wanting to buy a Yorkfield Intel® Core™2 Quad and overclock on the board he doesn't have!

The "Mention" of DDR2-1066 was brought into the conversation to point out that "if" bongas were to pick up a new/used Yorkfield Intel® Core™2 Quad this is what he would need to achieve the best potential overclock from the chip . . .

sastusbulbas, appears to be leading bongas down a path that will first get him to upgrade his uATX/non overclocking board to a more modern overclocking friendly P45 board, get his DualCore overclocked to "evaluate" if the extra MHz helps him enjoy his computer & gaming a bit more, if it still doesn't meet bongas's needs then sastusbulbas is suggesting that bongas then buys some DDR2-1066 and a Yorkfield Intel® Core™2 Quad and finally reach his destination . . . in short this means that if the Overclocked DualCore isn't the right "fit" then bongas will have swapped out his older LGA775 DualCore/uATX mobo/DDR2-800 for a newer LGA775 QuadCore/ATX mobo/DDR2-1066 which I have been suggesting is not the best route forward since the 27th August!

 

[Big.Wayne]

[Off Topic]

• 
• WHAT the ***
• i am really fed up of all of you
• cant you people PLEASE advice me
• NO ONE SEAMS to answer a simple question.
• HELP

Hello bongas,

I understand that you are frustrated but I must remind you that this is a public forum and all members are expected to behave respectfully at all times . . . everyone who is trying to help you does so in their free time and it would probably be best to be as polite and friendly as possible if you want to keep everyone happy!

I do totally understand your situation but the problem seems to be you are out of your depth technically, taking advice from several different people who's opinions are conflicting, your posting in two threads at once and the subject here if off topic which kinda means some people who possibly could help you have no idea you need help . . .

I would suggest you take a little time off and try your best to relax, watch some TV and get yourself back to the "happy" place . . . then perhaps it would be best if you either made a new thread or continued your original thread . . . [LGA775] Board for Overclocking here

Good luck and catch up with you after you got your breath back!

 

[bongas]

My apology to the OC UK forum but still, heres a simple form to fill:
(note , only cpu overclocking is the main concern)

I7 x58 chipset + kingston ddr3 1333MHz value ram (YES/NO)
I5 p55 chipset + Kingston ddr3 1333MHz value ram (YES/NO)
AMD 785G chipset + kinston ddr2 800MHz value ram (YES/NO)
q9550 p45 chipset + kingston ddr2 800MHz value ram (YES/NO)

Please select yes if u think that the setup wont be a bottleneck for Ocing the "CPU"
Please select no if you think otherwise.

 

[sastusbulbas]

[Off Topic]

sastusbulbas, appears to be leading bongas down a path that will first get him to upgrade his uATX/non overclocking board to a more modern overclocking friendly P45 board, get his DualCore overclocked to "evaluate" if the extra MHz helps him enjoy his computer & gaming a bit more, if it still doesn't meet bongas's needs then sastusbulbas is suggesting that bongas then buys some DDR2-1066 and a Yorkfield Intel® Core™2 Quad and finally reach his destination . . . in short this means that if the Overclocked DualCore isn't the right "fit" then bongas will have swapped out his older LGA775 DualCore/uATX mobo/DDR2-800 for a newer LGA775 QuadCore/ATX mobo/DDR2-1066 which I have been suggesting is not the best route forward since the 27th August!

Guys,

Big Wayne is talking out his **** here, I am not suggesting Bongas do ALL this, I don't remember telling him to buy a Quad 775, and the PC-8500 is based on Wayne's own opinion of PC-6400 being a bottleneck. Some banter was no more than me replying to Waynes claim of me trying to justify my own choices

Showing it as an alternative option to an AMD Quad hardly consitutes telling him to buy, but it is rather amusing that we can see the DDR2 versus DDR3 debate being dismissed with an AM2+ board, that we are glossing over the fact that a £60 DDR2 motherboard is a £60 DDR2 motherboard, that he does not have the current budget for a new AMD platform. And that we seem to be missing the opinion of like for like, at the same cost AMD is not offering significant advantage in performance over Intel 775 with games.

I do seem to remember stating a complete new AMD AM3 system as being worthwhile, until budget was mentioned. An I3 system may be worth while, even though Dual Core it offers good OC potential but P55 seems to be going down the 775 route and what about H55?

If he can only upgrade a bit at a time, and plans to move to a new platform next year, I hardly see 775 as a waste of space and effort. He certainly can't stick an E7400 in an AMD board, should he sell his kit and buy a new full retail budget AMD rig instead of sticking out with second hand 775 a bit longer?

Wayne stated a budget AMD quad, I seem to remember Custom PC finding such poorer with games than an Intel Core 2 Duo? If so why upgrade to AMD/AM2+ if no improvement in game performance to justify the expenditure in time and money?

There's the X4 Phenom, which I also seem to remember Custom PC finding poorer than an Intel Quad for games?

Wayne also suggested AM2+ and AMD hardware we know is going to be superceded next year. So early next year Bongos may be in the same situation, instead of an old 775 processor looking for a new mobo it may well be an old AMD processor looking for a new mobo, and he will still have DDR2?

A second hand P45 will certainly improve his current system for the lowest cost. A new £60 AM2+ is not goint to sell for around £60 second hand, a second hand P45 bought for £60 is probably still going to sell for around £60 in a few months time.

IF memory is an issue, second hand DDR2 PC8500 or DDR3 can be found for around £50, old DDR2 6400 can sell for around £40, new DDR3 costs around £70 odd. so memory and upgrading such is tit for tat at around £20 or so if old stuff is sold.

How much is a second hand Q6600? Is a X4 955 worth twice the price and how do both compair when OC'd?

So what is the financial cost of sticking it out a little longer before selling up and moving on?

What sort of performance gain with games would he expect to see between these options? And what would the cost difference be? Would it be second hand or new, would it be bit by bit or will the budget appear for a complete new system, would any of them be replaced next year, would he lose much selling these items on? Is there any point in a Quad? What platform would be easier for Bongas to OC, or would he be better off with a stock 3Ghz+ AMD?

E7400/P45/DDR2 PC-6400

X4 635/AM2+/DDR2 PC-6400

E7400/P45/DDR2 PC-8500

Q6600/P45/DDR2 PC-8500

Q9550/P45/DDR2 PC-8500

AMD X4 955/AM3/DDR3 1600

i3 G6950/H55/DDR3 1600

Not that any of it matters, Bongos has a budget, he knows not what he wants, he needs to save more to get a complete system. To see any major benefit I think he may need more than a CPU, motherboard, and memory.

Again to think about, how much money is Bongos spending, what noticeable gain will you notice from these benchmark differences? And what differences would we see if the GPU was a GTS-250!
Graphs on post 8 within this thread http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sho...php?t=18182722.
To compare various non OC'd processors,
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/87?vs=146

No hardware comes with any guarantee of OC ability, you may get 4ghz you may get less, memory may bottleneck or may not, some memory may work better with some motherboards etc etc.

Budget for improving game performance is £180, we have no guarantee of what he can get for his old kit in his area, or how long it may take to sell, his current specs are:

e7400
dg41rq intel board
2 x 2gb kingston value ram default clock at 800MHz
GTS 250
Cooler master 460 watts PSU
Cooler Master elite 330 case
250 GB Western Digital HDD....7200 Rpm.
LCD display with a maximum of 1680x1050 resolution.

To quote Wayne,
Let me just tell you . . . if you are sticking with your DualCore and intend to pick up a used P45 motherboard then your current DDR2-800 ram will not hold back your CPU overclocking!

Like I opinionated at the start, if you don't know what you want or plan on a new platform next year, then a better P45 board is worthwhile for now, re-evaluate later what you think your options or requirements are. Maybe a list of available sources for you to buy kit too? We have no idea where you can shop from and what it will cost you.

No matter what you buy, no one can guarantee the questions you want answered, your above post makes no sense. From what I can gather the best gaming platform is i7 with DDR3 1600, but with a GTS-250 and a CoolerMaster 460w PSU?

I only bought a Quad for multitasking, video photo music etc, as I already had 8gb of ram and a P45 I took the easy option, if it makes no difference to my life I can sell it on without losing too much, if it makes a huge difference to my life I may not shirk away from spending on a more bling i7 platform but at the moment I have as much a requirement for a pair of Deemax Ultimate which in my situation will also do nothing but add bling to my life. Both my dual cores cope with all my current games.



And again good advice from Wayne above Bongas

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think the OP should stick with what they have ATM . In most games the E7400 should be still fine IMHO.

If the system is sluggish I would suggest doing some general system maintenance before rushing out and buying new PC components. I would make sure that the system is free of spyware and viruses,that the hard disk is defragmented and all unnecessary software is uninstalled. I would also make sure that all drivers and updated to their latest stable releases and all games installed have been patched.

Also, cleaning out dust from the system and making sure it has adequate cooling also is helpful.


Doing these simple measures can improve system performance noticeably IMHO.


With Intel Sandy Bridge and AMD Bulldozer coming out next year I would wait until then and save up some more money for a full platform upgrade. The OP could also get a second generation DX11 card too.

 

[Muel]

To put it simply OP, with that ram the best you will get is a 400mhz FSB (roughly). This will give you a 4.2ghz CPU because it has a 10.5 multi.

However, if you change to pretty much any 775 quad, the RAM will be limiting the overclock as you will then need to start pushing 475 FSB. (Q9400 8x multi, 475FSB will give 3.8ghz).

So you can overclock the dual core, get a quad and have a lower oveclock (around 3.2ghz on a Q9400), or upgrade the CPU and RAM, to get a higher overclock.

 

[Big.Wayne]

[Off Topic]

I am not suggesting Bongas do ALL this, I don't remember telling him to buy a Quad 775, and the PC-8500 is based on Wayne's own opinion of PC-6400 being a bottleneck.

you can usually pick up a Q9550 for around £150 a decent P45 mobo for around £50 and 4gb of PC-8500 for around £50 from eBay these days from sellers with reasonable feedback and posted Special Delivery.

If you want a cheap upgrade path and eBay is viable then socket 775 is reasonable bang for buck, if you just want to improve your system a decent P45 board coupled with PC-8500 will still work well with your current 775 CPU.

As far as I could see his motherboard was holding back the current CPU, if he got a new motherboard and wanted to OC he may find PC-8500 usefull, and if sticking with 775 but wanting to upgrade to quad without spending on a new system the Q9550 or Q6600 are an alternative. All second hand of course.

I do think just upgrading to a better 775 mobo worthwhile at the moment, then selling his current mobo if possible and upgrading to PC-8500 and selling his PC-6400 to re-coup costs. Then re-considering how much of a gain Quad would give him, and re-evaluating a 775 Quad or new AMD Quad build

 

[bongas]

Thaks a lot, i think i understand...........@muel

 

[bongas]

The bottom line is that i am going to wait till the next year for the sasndy bridge to come out and then plan an upgrade to my existing setup or change to a new platform.
That depends on what would fit in my budget .

at the end i would like to thank Big wayne and sastusbulbas (except for the little fight they had) and muel for the final reply also CAT guy for helping me make a decision and all the Guys who posted to HELP............................U all are the best

 

[sastusbulbas]

(Off Topic with regard to Wayne's above)

Quote Bongas;
So u r suggesting that my ram is a bottleneck for ocing my cpu?

Quote Wayne;
Well yeah if the RAM won't run stably at speeds beyond 400MHz

Quote me;
If you just want to improve your system a decent P45 board coupled with PC-8500 will still work well with your current 775 CPU.

Quote Wayne;
Cmon sastusbulbas, you are not seriously suggesting someone spend £250+ on building a 2010 LGA775 system?

Quote me;
No, not quite, but if you had a limited budget or low income and intended using some 775 parts a bit longer, as individual items the above may have been alternatives as individual purchases over the following months

Quote me;
If his budget and components are limited and he is unsure, a second hand mobo may be a viable short term improvement.

Quote me;
If he has a budget for an AMD and DDR3 build it makes more sense, with options on dual, triple or quad core based on actual requirement and budget.

Quote me;
If he has enough for a complete system and needs a Quad then it makes things simple and he may as well go AMD.

Quote me;
I am not advocating a complete change to a new 775 system, just pointing out that upgrading the mobo may well be worthwhile in the short term.

Quote me;
If you do plan to move platform soon and have £300 or so to spend now it is a waste of time and money continuing with your current 775 and DDR2 components.

Quote me;
If you are positive you want a new platform, Quad, and for gaming, I see no point in sticking with DDR2 and using anything less than an AMD Phenom II or Intel i5. AMD seems better supported, i5 750 with Gigabyte very overclockable.

Quote me;
My abnormal opinion is to get some value for money from the E7400 before making your mind up, you don't plan going Hex till the end of the year so why not get more out what you have?
Second hand P45 mobo at around £50.
Second Hand PC-8500 at around £50.
Sell your own mobo and PC-6400 and you may get around £40 back.
So for around £60 you could overclock the E7400 to around 3.8Ghz or 4Ghz with luck. Later when you decide to sell I don't expect you would loose much over the second hand prices you pay.

Quote me;
Then you can probably sell all your 775 kit and go for the likes of an AMD Phenom II X4 965 with an AM3 mobo and DDR3?

Quote me;
I don't see any harm in improving the system you have for the meantime with a better motherboard, or even PC-8500 if feeling flush.

Quote me;
You have a good CPU for what you want to do, you need a better motherboard. Once you have an overclocked dual core you can then evaluate.

Quote me;
Why do you think you need to throw money at a new gaming rig when you are keeping DDR2-800 and your GTS-250? And AMD and Intel are bringing out new platforms next year?

Quote me;
Clearly the only option you have is as Big Wayne suggested and a budget £180 AMD/AM2+ platform with your current DDR2. It could fund a Phenom 2 X4 with an AM2+ board if you can get it posted to you at OcUK prices? Shame you can't stretch to AM3/DDR3 though.

Quote me;
You could OC your E7400 a little more and play with settings to find your highest stable FSB that works with PC-6400 probably around 3.2ghz with a 333Mhz multi. later upgrading to DDR3 which can go toward an AMD rig later?

Quote me;
A P45 board will allow you more OC headroom, NOT guarantee a stable high OC.

Quote me;
You may get a reasonable stable sufficient OC with DDR2 800, but DDR2 1066 will give you more room to play with with a better chance of success. I have not seen any real reason to worry about 1.1 sync with memory.

Quote me;
DDR3 is pointless if sticking with 775, it may allow you more headroom to OC in the same manner as 1066, but it is only worth buying DDR3-1600 IF you intend to use the board as a stop gap.

Quote me;
A 775 Quad is pointless until you have ran your E7400 OC'd and experience that Dual as a bottle neck when multi tasking or playing games that use four cores, and by then it may be that new platforms are out which cost the same, or less, and perform just as well.



Putting spin on something does not make it so Wayne, it's not politics it's not cricket. You have suggested a lot of AMD which look to offer not a huge gaming increase over 775 for the money, and I have suggested AMD as well as old 775 hardware, while asking what improvements in gaming he is likely to expect.

The above quotes are in sucession after various replies with their own implementations from Bongas, IE where he lives, what is available, budget, buying a new platform NEXT year, etc etc.

And regardless of wether I say AMD, new intel or old Intel, the benchmarks, links and magazines such as Custom PC all show how much performance we get per pound with some of the suggested routes. AMD and Intel fan boys see what they want, others are intersted in value per pound.

Now I may be off the mark here, but the 775 upgrades are hardly expensive and if bought second hand are hardly going to lose a lot when re-sold. Is his PSU solid enough for OC'ing a Quad? AMD require more watts than Intel don't they? Is upgrading the graphics card not going to make as big a difference as changing to budget AMD?

What sort of percentages are we talking about here 10% 20% 30% and for how much money and effort?

From what I have seen in benchies a Q9550/P45/DDR2 ain't an embarrassment when compaired to a X4 955/AM3/DDR3 considering the cost second hand versus new, and from what I have read Intel usually knocks socks off AMD for OC'ing and games.

Hence me suggesting such re-evaluation in future, why not spend on a P45 mobo if it gets you by? Why not spend on a higher level of memory if it's not costing much once you sell old? Why not consider a Quad for such? Q6600 are bought and sold for similar amounts still, Q9550's will probably drop in second hand value by the time he did re-consider and where will an X4 955 sit then in the market?, 775 will certainly get someone by until a real difference comes along that the buyer has the budget for. Once a new platform is bought the old 775 kit can be sold. Disclaimer, this does not equate to me stating Bongas should buy a 775 Quad!


Right now he has £180 with maybe around £50 or so for his old kit, putting i3 as a contender, with budget AMD rearing it's old head, since April 09 the E7300 has been a Custom PC preference over AMD cost equivalents for gaming, yet we see advice being given to sell a £95 Core 2 and buy a £95 AMD Quad as well as a new AM2+ motherboard for gaming with his old DDR2 and GTS-250 even though new platforms are round the corner.

Maybe IF he can stretch his budget, would a new graphics card and P45 offer bigger bang for buck than a budget AMD quad platform?

I don't know the answers. I have different priorities.

Selling stuff takes time, and costs money which has to be deducted from proffit. Bongas seems unable to just order anything he wants from OCUK. And I have no idea what is available nor of the second hand market available to Bongas.

I would rather have an AMD X4-965/AM3/DDR3 platform than what Bongas currently has, but that lot costs more than a second hand Q9550 with not much increase in performance for the extra money, by the time he sells his memory (IF he needs better) and current mobo, his P45 and better memory may only have cost around £60?

If he has a P45 with DDR3 capability does it make sense to run underclocked DDR3 which may be useable in a new platform? If so what can he get and for how much?

Maybe trying to think about what is available to Bongas and at what cost may help evaluate a cost effective upgrade path instead of what people think is best due to their own preference.

And another disclaimer for Waynes big head!
I was in a similar situation to Bongas, I had the money for an i7 930/Asus Rampage II Gene/Dominator GT or an AMD X6-1090T/Asus Crosshair IV/Dominator GT platform, chosen as much for bling and fun as "value for money", I instead chose to buy a second hand Quad for my 775 kit to see what difference it made with what kit I currently have and do with my PC's. Considering what I was doing, what my needs may be, the difference in benchies and the cost, what I did was just that, a choice. Still hanker for one of those systems, I may buy such but I don't need it, and there will always be something else round the corner and someone elses opinion on what matters and whats best. Right now I am playing Age Of Empires II - Conquerers Expansion, and Supreme Commander, and C&C4 with an E6300 running stock so what do I know or indeed care I'm not going to bother with my Q9550 till I get some MX-3 and maybe a new case.

Think this thread is dead..........................

 

[kevbiss1]

i hav never heard of overclocking the HT!

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

AFAIK,bongas is in Pakistan. Anyway, the OP decided to stick with their existing kit.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Right now he has £180 with maybe around £50 or so for his old kit, putting i3 as a contender, with budget AMD rearing it's old head, since April 09 the E7300 has been a Custom PC preference over AMD cost equivalents for gaming, yet we see advice being given to sell a £95 Core 2 and buy a £95 AMD Quad as well as a new AM2+ motherboard for gaming with his old DDR2 and GTS-250 even though new platforms are round the corner.

CustomPC is more Intel biased.

An X3 440 which is around £60 on OcUK is very similar to the £94 E7500 for gaming:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/119?vs=87

 

[Nemeses]

almost not worth the extra cost of ddr3

 

[sastusbulbas]

CustomPC is more Intel biased.

An X3 440 which is around £60 on OcUK is very similar to the £94 E7500 for gaming:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/119?vs=87

Yeah at stock, Custom PC test them at stock and OC, and OC'd is usually where we see the lead occur, though even they recommend the AMD CPU's for those not OC'ing or worried about high wattage.

You can take the 7400 up to 4ghz and it works very well, certainly well enough to make spending money on a CPU with similar performance which also requires a new motherboard questionable?

But yeah, reading too much into what as you say is an Intel fan club at times.