Poll: Death Penalty - Yay or Nay

[enkoda]

The trouble is though, what happens when we have someone we think is 100% guilty and it later turns out they're not?

I'll try and find an example or two later.

Thinking someone is 100% guilty is not the same as knowing or proving beyond any doubt that someone is 100% guilty.

I would say the minimum criteria for establishing absolute guilt would be:

Evidence of premeditation
Multiple witnesses (i.e. crowded public place)
Multiple CCTV/mobile phone recordings
Perpetrator arrested at the scene
DNA/forensic evidence
Admission of guilt

If you can find a miscarriage of justice where the innocent party was convicted with all the above being proven in court, then I'll eat my proverbial hat.

 

[darreny]

I may have put it wrong, I meant their views on Islam may change as they get older and regret their actions as younger men. The would make a far better anti extremism tool later down the line than hanging now

 

[DrToffnar]

Whilst I disagree with capital punishment for anyone, my biggest issue is that once you have it as a possibility, you will execute innocent people. You may come back and say that doesn't need to be the case, at which point I'd ask for a single example of any state in the world which has capital punishment and has not subsequently found a miscarriage of justice.

Precisely. Even if you do think it's a good idea, just one miscarriage of justice instantly robs the system of any merit whatsoever. If you then go on to argue that paying for the executions of extreme degenerates with just a few drops of innocent blood now and again is correct... well, I don't know what else to say to you.

There are FAR too many grey areas to justify such a thing. Most people in favour just seem to think each murder/rape/act of terrorism etc investigation is clear cut and there's a definitive right and wrong in ALL of those situations.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

Great article in the Guardian today regarding the death penalty and the mistakes made even down to the forensic level.


I spent 28 years on death row

Without lawyer Bryan Stevenson and the Equal Justice Initiative (EJI), I wouldn’t be where I am now. I wrote to him after seeing him on TV one day while being walked back to my cell. I got to meet him in 1995 and finally had someone to fight for me.

He hired a ballistics expert and when we got the news that the bullets didn’t match, we went to the attorney general. They refused to take an hour to re-examine the case because it would be a “waste of taxpayers’ money”, and I sat on death row for another 16 years.

Source = https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/oct/21/28-years-on-death-row

 

[edscdk]

Great article in the Guardian today regarding the death penalty and the mistakes made even down to the forensic level.


I spent 28 years on death row


Source = https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/oct/21/28-years-on-death-row

I remember a program on the forensics labs used for some courts (in the US)

the labs were TOLD they were being tested, and they gave the wrong results, they were told they gave the wrong results and then tested again... they gave the WRONG results the second time as well!

 

[timebomb26]

Trying to think about the possible merits of the death penalty put forward in this thread, but the whole thing just keeps unraveling. I genuinely can't think of any way it would be fair and actually work.

 

[DrToffnar]

Trying to think about the possible merits of the death penalty put forward in this thread, but the whole thing just keeps unraveling. I genuinely can't think of any way it would be fair and actually work.

That's because we're evolved now. We've (pretty much) moved past that archaic 'eye for an eye' mentality that ruled us for so many years.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Why are you assuming that any of FT's post is related to his moderator role?

Wearing two hats is a difficult road to walk, personally I think as a moderator posting such a thing is somewhat unwise. In fact I can see benefit in moderators purely moderating and not making "normal" posts at all. But it's not my forum, so I am merely musing aloud

 

[Chris Wilson]

I think this thread is a good example of why this should never, ever be put to any sort of referendum. The amount of ignorance is astounding.

Err, perhaps you really mean the amount of people with opposing views to your own is astounding?

There are some on this forum who seem to feel the British public are incapable of making a judgement on nearly everything if it is not the judgement that they share.

One wonders how these people get through the day, hold down a job and raise a famaily that are not criminal social misfits from the sleights they receive for voicing their opinions! As for their ability to make a considered judgement in something like a referendum, well, that still irks many who were disappointed by recent results

 

[Chris Wilson]

There's that guy who served 29 years for killing somebody and DNA proved him innocent. He also had the mind of a 9 year old I think. I can't remember his name.
They had the samples back then but didn't have the technology.

I believe you may be thinking of the "Bakewell Tart" murder, I linked to the case in an earlier post of mine.

 

[DrToffnar]

Err, perhaps you really mean the amount of people with opposing views to your own is astounding?

There are some on this forum who seem to feel the British public are incapable of making a judgement on nearly everything if it is not the judgement that they share.

We're not capable. Simple as that. It's not about 'getting one over on the other side'. The choice of whether someone lives or dies should not fall to the feet of any human being. That is the principle difference between us and them.

EDIT: By 'them' I mean murderers/rapists etc.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Wearing two hats is a difficult road to walk, personally I think as a moderator posting such a thing is somewhat unwise. In fact I can see benefit in moderators purely moderating and not making "normal" posts at all. But it's not my forum, so I am merely musing aloud

Unless you're paid, nobody would do that. Why would you continue to moderate a community you can't be part of?

 

[Burnsy2023]

Err, perhaps you really mean the amount of people with opposing views to your own is astounding?

There are some on this forum who seem to feel the British public are incapable of making a judgement on nearly everything if it is not the judgement that they share.

One wonders how these people get through the day, hold down a job and raise a famaily that are not criminal social misfits from the sleights they receive for voicing their opinions! As for their ability to make a considered judgement in something like a referendum, well, that still irks many who were disappointed by recent results

Many people here are making opinions based on little if any understanding of the causes of crime. To quote Harlan Ellison:

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.

What many of the opinions are based on is very simplistic understanding of complex issues. Crime is very complex because it involves people. It's multidisciplinary, it's often uncomfortable and it's emotive. None of these help people who don't have a good understanding make good decisions.

The public don't care about really understanding the issues, which is why this should be left to people who do have deep domain knowledge, especially when the stakes are so high.

 

[DrToffnar]

Very well put Burnsy. Though I still stand in the camp of it's NO ONE'S decision to make. The principle is just not morally quantifiable in my head.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Very well put Burnsy. Though I still stand in the camp of it's NO ONE'S decision to make. The principle is just not morally quantifiable in my head.

Yeah, my focus is making solid, evidence-based decisions that are constructive to the purpose. I'm not really even going down the moral route because it doesn't even stack up on a logical level.

 

[cheesyboy]

I think this thread is a good example of why this should never, ever be put to any sort of referendum. The amount of ignorance is astounding.

The tyranny of the majority.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

You can't making a omelette without cracking a few eggs. Innocent people die every day due to the decisions we as a society make. People getting squeamish about the odd person here or there being killed due a miscarriage of justice seems a bit naive.

 

[Burnsy2023]

You can't making a omelette without cracking a few eggs. Innocent people die every day due to the decisions we as a society make. People getting squeamish about the odd person here or there being killed due a miscarriage of justice seems a bit naive.

My reason to oppose such a concept is simple: self-interest. I could be that person, though no fault of my own, who is in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up losing my life (quite avoidably) because of it.

I'm not up for that. Nobody should be up for that.

And that avoiding the whole moral thing but arguing that with someone who has none clearly isn't going to get me anywhere.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

My reason to oppose such a concept is simple: self-interest. I could be that person, though no fault of my own, who is in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up losing my life (quite avoidably) because of it.

I'm not up for that. Nobody should be up for that.

And that avoiding the whole moral thing but arguing that with someone who has none clearly isn't going to get me anywhere.

Using the US as an example, the statistical chances that you could face the death penalty for being in the wrong place at the wrong time is so trivial it's almost laughable. The chances of being convicted and then executed is almost negligible. So let's not pretend this is a likely scenario.

But if the sanctity of life is so great to you, that even this hundreds of millions of one to chance of someone dying is not worth it to you, can I ask if you've ever driven when even moderately tired, whilst on the phone, whilst talking to someone in your car, changing radio station or so forth?

And please spare me your self-righteousness. I am a very moral person. The happen I don't share your own Saved By The Bell morality doesn't change that fact.

 

[Vern1961]

Yes... with caveats.

Reserved for particular heinous crimes with murder classified into degrees, similar to the US. Cannot be imposed where the verdict is based on circumstantial evidence, but if the killer is caught red handed on CCTV, there is damning evidence or several reliable witnesses then... A bullet to the back of the neck or a properly calculated judicial hanging means they never bother anyone again.*

* I recognise a "whole life" tariff without parole achieves the same result but until the judicial system in this country grasps the fact a life sentence should be more than ten years, people will revisit the restoration of capital punishment.