Poll: DELETED_74993

[Castiel]

Anyone else a little worried about what Putin is saying? I just watched the film "Threads" too which didn't help http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090163/

Russia Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said the intervention reminded him of the medieval call for crusades:

“In Bill Clinton’s times they bombed Yugoslavia and Belgrade, Bush sent troops to Afghanistan and then, under a made-up and absolutely false excuse they sent troops to Iraq, liquidated all Iraqi authorities, even children from Saddam Hussein’s family were killed. Now its Libya’s turn. They use protection of civilians as an excuse. But it is the civilian population who perish in air raids. So where is the logic and conscience? There is none of both.”

Putin doesn't actually believe the rhetoric he spews forth, he is concerned about selling arms and maintaining Russian markets and that is all.

 

[Castiel]

Yep don't listen to him, don't think, just keep accepting the mainstream media view of the world

So you would rather accept the ramblings of David Iyke than accept that intel received was faulty and not intentionally invented.

Considering that Hussein was guilty of being obstructive to weapons inspectors and consistently ambiguous about and in some cases hinting that he had weapons programs it is not surprising that intel erred on the side of the affirmative.

 

[arknor]

is intel just hearsay and gossip? may aswell get rid of the cia etc seems theres no need just recruit a few schoolkids and see what rumours are floating around the playground.

 

[dirtydog]

intel received was faulty and not intentionally invented.

 

[Danthus]

If i buy a washing machine and the door falls off, that is faulty, if I order a washing machine and a toaster turns up that is not a fault.

 

[dirtydog]

Castiel wasn't paying attention for the last ten years.

Blair was told that Iraq wasn't a threat. He and Alastair Campbell told them to sex up the evidence and make a scary sounding dossier in order to hype up a non-existent threat so that people would believe we needed to invade Iraq. There was never any evidence that Saddam had restarted his weapons programmes. Scott Ritter (previous UN weapons inspector) said in 1999 that Saddam had fully complied with all UN demands and that all the weapons sites were still sealed as the UN had left them. The only weapons Saddam had were a few short range missiles which he was fully permitted to have under the UN resolution.

The US/UK knew full well that he was complying with the UN resolutions. They were just a smokescreen to fool the gullible - like Castiel obviously. Their goal was to invade and to seize control of some of the biggest untapped oil reserves left in the world. They were always going to do this, come what may. Saddam was in an impossible position of having to 'prove' that he didn't have something that he didn't have. Whereas the onus should have been on the UN to prove he did have it.

 

[Castiel]

If i buy a washing machine and the door falls off, that is faulty, if I order a washing machine and a toaster turns if that is not a fault.

But if it was a toaster that looked and acted like a washing machine and it was only by dismantling it that you could tell then, who is at fault, the source of the washing machine or you for dismantling it.

Hussein contributed to his own downfall, it is as simple as that. There was no concerted effort by Western Govts to invent Intel simply to attack Iraq.

They acted on erroneous intelligence which only in hindsight became apparent.

 

[Castiel]

Whereas the onus should have been on the UN to prove he did have it.

If he had complied with inspections then they could have ascertained that either way.

As for the "other" reasons if you read my previous posts I quite agree that there were other considerations than just WMD's, in fact WMD's were probably the least of them and only media emphasis has elevated them from a secondary consideration at best.

 

[Danthus]

But if it was a toaster that looked and acted like a washing machine and it was only by dismantling it that you could tell then who is at fault, the source of the washing machine or you for dismantling it.

Hussein contributed to his own downfall, it is as simple as that. There was no concerted effort by Western Govts to invent Intel simply to attack Iraq.

They acted on erroneous intelligence which only in hindsight became apparent.

So why didn't they simply pull out then when they didn't find the weapons?

You know full well what a dirty little game intelligence is, I will be honest i don't mind our intelligence services playing the game, we happen to be very good at it, but in this case we were fed a lie.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Do you really believe that Castiel ?

Iraq was never the threat that Bush and Blair made it out to be and I have an inkling that they knew that before invasion.

It seems that oil producers get military intervention and non oil producers do not.

 

[dirtydog]

If he had complied with inspections then they could have ascertained that either way.

You have been badly misled. I suggest looking into it more and educating yourself about what actually happened, seriously.

 

[Castiel]

Do you really believe that Castiel ?

Iraq was never the threat that Bush and Blair made it out to be and I have an inkling that they knew that before invasion.

It seems that oil producers get military intervention and non oil producers do not.

Be that as it may, I don't accept that the UK/US administrations colluded to "invent" intel that showed WMD's.

I believe it was based on poorly obtained and unverified sources and suited the overall agenda, but "invented", no.

 

[Danthus]

Be that as it may, I don't accept that the UK/US administrations colluded to "invent" intel that showed WMD's.

I believe it was based on poorly obtained and unverified sources and suited the overall agenda, but "invented", no.

Even if that was the case, that is a shocking failing, to go to war on the basis of unverified intelligence!

 

[dirtydog]

Be that as it may, I don't accept that the UK/US administrations colluded to "invent" intel that showed WMD's.

I believe it was based on poorly obtained and unverified sources and suited the overall agenda, but "invented", no.

It is beyond doubt that they did indeed invent it. Straight after 9/11 we have Bush saying we need to invade Iraq :/ 9/11 was the perfect catalyst to embark on their middle east oil grab.

 

[Castiel]

You have been badly misled. I suggest looking into it more and educating yourself about what actually happened, seriously.

I haven't been misled at all. Reading about something and actually seeing UN inspectors being given the run around is what sets us apart obviously.

 

[dirtydog]

I haven't been misled at all. Reading about something and actually seeing UN inspectors being given the run around is what sets us apart obviously.

The US and UK assembled their war fleet in the gulf, even as the weapons inspections were continuing. Do you really think there was ANY chance that they would just pack up and come home?

Have you forgotten that they originally tried to get a UN resolution specifically giving them the green light to invade Iraq, and then they failed to get it, so then made out that the original resolution gave them the authority anyway? Erm if that is the case then why try to get the 2nd resolution? Lying scumbags.

 

[Danthus]

I haven't been misled at all. Reading about something and actually seeing UN inspectors being given the run around is what sets us apart obviously.

Lots of his weapons were dismantled one way or another in the fist Gulf War, how on earth did he reassemble the apparatus to manufacture these weapons later on?

 

[Castiel]

Even if that was the case, that is a shocking failing, to go to war on the basis of unverified intelligence!

I quite agree, however it happens more often than not.

Like you said Intelligence is a dirty game, I know just how dirty and darned hard it is to verify anything.

No doubt, as in many, many cases prior to and after the Iraq War, faulty intel will be accepted as justification by Govts and military leaderships if it agrees with what their ultimate aims are.

I do not ascribe to dirtydogs collusion/conspiracy agenda in this respect.

 

[doodah]

So was the 'strong' link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda based on faulty intel too?

Wasn't one of the main sources for the WMD claim an Iraqi tax driver? Or is that one of these urban myths?

 

[Danthus]

We are not that bad at the intelligence, our track record suggests we are rather good in most respects, to the point that Mr Kerr was shipped out to Iraq to start up all over again.