Poll: DELETED_74993

[Sayso]

Yet another place we should not be...putting our forces at risk to gain some political kudos...i ****ing hate politicians.

 

[arknor]

It is amazing how people forget. We are being bombarded by propaganda thinly disguised as news.

its amazing hoq loads of people come in the thread and believe it all though.

BBC havent been an unibased news source for a very long time imo and sky always seem to have an agenda

 

[mmj_uk]

It's another coup d'etat, this article speaks volumes:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Libyan_Rebels_Form_Their_Own_Central_Bank

 

[silversurfer]

It doesnt say enough, it tries to imply too much

This suggests we have a bit more than a ragtag bunch of rebels running around and that there are some pretty sophisticated influences. “I have never before heard of a central bank being created in just a matter of weeks out of a popular uprising,” Wenzel writes.

They are conducting oil exports, a banking process would be necessary to go with that I imagine.
Also they are not fully equipped to fight a war, they reliant on Nato for air support and lacking otherwise.

Its a siege type situation they are in and setting up trade will be needed to avoid that unless we are talking a berlin air drop type level of support which would compromise their independence in this fight for sure.
I imagine the bank and provisional government will purchasing many things with moneys managed

Also its been more then weeks now. What often happens in civil wars is great amounts of money go missing misdirected and are never recovered, a central bank accountable for its actions rather then a closed war council sounds fairly essential to a democracy.

I'd expect it was related to that sale of oil and who they sold it to, if you drive a car then you are involved with all sorts of nasty places oil comes from and many are unstable and undemocratic

 

[godinman]

So, I've been rubbing and scratching my crystal balls and have a possible vision of the future,

1 - No fly zone fails
2 - We send in ground troops
3 - Gadaffi falls
4 - Gadaffi's troops turn overnight into terrorist insurgents
5 - They threaten the newly formed pro west, pro cheap oil government
6 - Car bombings, suicide bombings and assassinations ensue, with our troops protecting the government and training the army.
7 - Yet another terrorist group with a major grudge against the west and more dead soldiers.

I stand by my original post.

 

[[TW]Fox]

its amazing hoq loads of people come in the thread and believe it all though.

What makes you think you are any different? You are exactly the same but just on the other side - you blindly beleive all the 'alternative' and 'tinfoil hat' news stories in exactly the same way that others blindly beleive all the mainstream media.

They beleive what they are told, you beleive what you are told - how can it be any different given you are not there and are not party to any first hand information?

You seem to have hugely strong and emotive anti western sentiment on this whole thing, I can't understand why you seem to care so deeply. Being interested in the conflict is one thing but the level at which you are into this is is simply confusing.

 

[arknor]

The British and French governments want more UN sanctions against Libya but are being blocked by China, Russia and India.

Sky News sources in New York say that among a range of extra measures sought is a proposal to add Libyan state TV to the list of Libyan companies with which it would become illegal to do business. The two governments argue that state TV is aiding the Gaddafi war aims by broadcasting propaganda.

Libyan TV is partially broadcast via satellite companies Arab Sat, Nile Sat and Euro Sat. If it was listed, they could no longer accept payments from Tripoli. That might encourage the companies to consider whether to continue to carry the Libyan TV signal.

China, Russia and India have all called for Nato's bombing campaign against Libya to stop.

Sky News also understands that within Nato, the Americans, British and France are debating with other countries to see if the list of military targets in Libya can be widened.

and the rift widens , england and france would know all about using news channels for propaganda they eat up anything they are told in this country without questioning any of it

 

[[TW]Fox]

I can't say I'm suprised you ignored my post.

 

[The Running Man]

What makes you think you are any different? You are exactly the same but just on the other side - you blindly beleive all the 'alternative' and 'tinfoil hat' news stories in exactly the same way that others blindly beleive all the mainstream media.

They beleive what they are told, you beleive what you are told - how can it be any different given you are not there and are not party to any first hand information?

You seem to have hugely strong and emotive anti western sentiment on this whole thing, I can't understand why you seem to care so deeply. Being interested in the conflict is one thing but the level at which you are into this is is simply confusing.

Except, if you question what the BBC tells you and apply common sense the current actions are absurd. The Government dont want us to know the real facts.

It isnt difficult to form your own opinion of matters basing it on multiple sources and understanding what is happening in other countries, and why. For instance the Ivory coast, which although potentially resolved now has been in at least as bad a state as Libya - but for longer yet we sat idly by and took no action at all.

This hypocritical action from the government, plus the previous behaviour in say, Iraq, Afganistan and as identified by the wikileaks documents allows you to see through the thinly veiled lies purported by the current assembly.

 

[arknor]

i dont believe what i am told... i believe what i see and that is the un doing everything to try to throw gaddafi out even though its not part of the resolution, i see them suppling the rebels and encouraging them to keep fighting a pointless war they cant win because certain leaders threw their eggs into the basket and now they dont want to be seen as backing down.

i see un bombers hitting gaddafi tanks and troops claiming they are killing civilians in towns where journalists clearly stated all the civilians had left.

i see rebel deaths beeing reported as "people" so the general voter assumes it was a civilian.

i see rebel tanks , rockets , mortars happily fire on cities with no regard for civlian casulaties and i see the UN bombers happily help them endager peoples lifes.

they should have forced both sides to stop fighting long ago and the people of miserata could have gone back to their homes.

nothing good has came out of keeping this civil war going and nothing good will come out of keeping it going for an even longer time.

the rebels arent capable of over throwing gaddafi no matter how many bombs england and france drop.

the people of libya had a pretty good standard of living compared to all of the other african countries now they have a big horrible war and a crappy life

 

[The Running Man]

i see rebel tanks , rockets , mortars happily fire on cities with no regard for civlian casulaties and i see the UN bombers happily help them endager peoples lifes.

I see this too on the news, the Rebels doing HI 5's and SHout akbar allah! after each missile fires. They seem to have no idea where the missile will land, or what casualties it will cause.

And with the Libyan army occupying the cities then it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that the rebels are randomly and indescriminately bombing, shelling and milssiling civilians. Yet we dont airstike them and wipe them off the map with 2 million pound missiles do we?

 

[arknor]

I see this too on the news, the Rebels doing HI 5's and SHout akbar allah! after each missile fires. They seem to have no idea where the missile will land, or what casualties it will cause.

And with the Libyan army occupying the cities then it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that the rebels are randomly and indescriminately bombing, shelling and milssiling civilians. Yet we dont airstike them and wipe them off the map with 2 million pound missiles do we?

yup posted this before

thats suiposed to be mounted on a helicopter gunship its obviously unguided and firing missiles to god knows where (its pointing towards brega)
nearly every news report near the rebels shows them spamming missiles and artillery randomly in the direction of a gaddafi city

 

[The Running Man]

I know it is pretty shocking to watch yet all we do is watch and promote this performance. Its abhorrant that we are taking the course of action that we are.

As ive said, if we were preventing an unarmed massacre by forcing armed troops back i wouldnt be so bothered. Instead what we are doing is shielding an armed force from attack and allowing them to maraud and fire indescriminately against any target they want. Shocking.

 

[[TW]Fox]

You beleive what you see? Really?

I didn't realise you were posting from Tripoli, I thought all you see was whats on the internet and TV, like everyone else here.

 

[The Running Man]

You tell me what you see in that video. Is this indescriminate fire that could cause injury to civilians? or is it peaceful protest?

Yet, the BBC doesnt approach this from this angle because it is afraid to not toe the line, after all, budgets are getting cut in the public sector right?

The idea is to watch the videos eminating from diffrerent news sources and not necessarily buy into the lines trotted out about how these hapless rebels can barely defend themselves, when infact they are obviously attacking and not just defending.

Who are you defending?

 

[arknor]

You beleive what you see? Really?

I didn't realise you were posting from Tripoli, I thought all you see was whats on the internet and TV, like everyone else here.

if i were posting from tripoli what exactly would i see apart from innocent civilians getting on with their lives while coalition bombers fly over head dropping bombs.

there are no rebels in tripoli no one is actively fighting in tripoli the fighting in is miserata and between brega and ajdabiya.

we have been able to see what is happening from aljazeera , bbc and skynews reports what we do is watch the video footage and take in the information while questioning wether what we are told is actually reflecting in the video that acompanies it.

gaddafi seems quite happily to hold a frontline the rebels seem to be the agressors.

im not saying gaddafi is a saint but it wasnt that long ago the country was trying to be friends with the west and everyone was lineing up trying to sell him military equipment

 

[RoboCod]

^ exactly! You see what you see on TV, you don't see everything. You can't possibly have a better idea of what is happening there than any other person sat in their armchair back at home, yet you continue to bang this drum as if you do know everything, like you do have superior knowledge. Yet you can't admit this isn't the case, and that your opinions are just that... opinion, not fact.

By all accounts you're wasted sat in your chair, you should be one of our Generals advising on our military strategy:

nothing good has came out of keeping this civil war going and nothing good will come out of keeping it going for an even longer time.

the rebels arent capable of over throwing gaddafi no matter how many bombs england and france drop.

 

[arknor]

ofcourse you dont see everything but you see enough to know most of what we told is rumours and propaganda from the rebels.

whenever they are losing ground they come out with the "gaddafi is shelling civilians" routine...
now they are losibng miserata and they come out with "omfg cluster bombs...."

news flash cluster bombs arent banned in every country... usa uses them and would have no problem using them in iraq cities oh wait they actually did.
its one rule for the west when fighting a rebel insurgency and another for everyone else.

in the iraq war we saw british artillery firing on iraq cities with no care for civilian life , we saw tanks fighting in city centres and blasting holes in buildings, we saw huge ass bombs falling in populated areas , we saw everything gaddafi forces are trying to do.
how come we didnt endanger civilians when we did it? but because its someone we dont like hes evil.....

this is what we see and were told its good no civilians at risk...

when we do it we have these precision weapons that dont take out whole city blocks, no civilians are at risk.

gaddafi fires a few mortars and hes commiting mass murder on civilians.

btw if you dont realise what an MLRS is doing

One launcher firing twelve rockets can completely blanket one square kilometer with submunitions. For this reason, the MLRS is sometimes referred to as the "Grid Square Removal Service"

and america and the UK fired them on cities but aparently no civilians got injured because only iraq forces were in iraq they had no civilians.

 

[WingZero30]

ofcourse you dont see everything but you see enough to know most of what we told is rumours and propaganda from the rebels.

whenever they are losing ground they come out with the "gaddafi is shelling civilians" routine...

now they are losibng miserata and they come out with "omfg cluster bombs...."

news flash cluster bombs arent banned in every country... usa uses them and would have no problem using them in iraq cities oh wait they actually did.

its one rule for the west when fighting a rebel insurgency and another for everyone else.

you didnt see the western tanks in iraq? lol... gaddafi forces arent doing anything we havent done already in afghanistan and iraq

people care more about the oil than they do the real people of libya

Well said.

As said before imo Gaddaffi should have left when he saw what was happening in neighbouring countries and followed the example of ben Ali and Husni Mubarak.
42 years is huge time to rule or Gaddaffi should have atleast made a reconciliatory deal with opposition in terms of ruling the country before all this violence occured. So both sides are to be blamed.

 

[RoboCod]

...blah...

Well this thread isn't at all tedious is it.

You've made your point numerous times about use of certain types of force, but so what? Does it make it right that Gaddaffi uses those munitions too? You've also tried to make a point that it's all about oil, like as if this is some kind of revelation you had or or something. If that is all it is about then do you really think anyone will be surprised? So what??

You've posted several videos of coalition forces using munitions. It's quite a biased post, so I thought I'd share a few videos of munitions that the west have spent billions devising to reduce civilian casualties... because I just think that would be fair wouldn't it really? Over 100 of these were fired at Libya at the start of the conflict, as opposed to "grid square clearing devices". Does Gaddaffi make such attempts to minimise casualties?

Another point to make is that you don't know what situations the coalition forces in those videos are in. You don't know the full facts, you don't know why those weapons were used as opposed to other means. The point remains, you don't know more than the average joe sat in his armchair, so you should stop posting like you know more.

Oh look, I can post videos that portray us in a good light!