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It doesn't quite give the same rights. There are some issues around pensions I believe that do not apply to civil partnerships.

You're right, I should have put "broadly gives the same rights and responsibilities" but again as I initially said it's to all intents and purposes a marriage.

That aside the fact that we are now in a situation of "seperate but equal" which I personally do not feel is healthy. Would you accept a special type of marriage just for black people?

I don't think anyone but the most ardent of gay rights activists want to force religious institutions to preside over gay marriages but don't you think it would be nice if they could choose to do so?

I'm being pragmatic here in that I don't think the terms are hugely important - you can have a civil partnership whether you are gay or straight and for most purposes it is the equivalent of a marriage. I'm not convinced it's particularly unhealthy but as I've said I'm not all that hung up on the precise wording so if it's going to make a big difference to peoples lives then sure, let's legally call it marriage and put the matter to bed.

It would be nice if religious institutions could preside over gay marriages should they wish to but to the best of my understanding there's nothing preventing them holding a religious ceremony to "bless" the marriage or whatever the equivalent may be. Personally I might be more in favour of making marriage a purely civil affair (and open to all regardless of sexuality) and having an opportunity for anyone who wishes it to get their union confirmed/blessed/sanctified by whatever religious organisation they wish to.

Thankfully we are not in the same position as the US but we are still allowing religious institutions to force their beliefs on to those that have no interest in them. Your reliogion is against homosexuality? Fine, dont marry someone of the same gender, however you shouldnt be allowed to tell others who they can and cannot marry.

The term marriage doesn't seem hugely important to me in regard to the intent but again, if it bothers people that much then let's see if the law can't be changed to remove the term from it's currently protected status and applied more equally.
 
I'd still argue that to force those who are religious to carry out marriages for a union they disagree with is not acceptable.

Indeed, but that's not what is happening, unless I've missed something, a church can still turn you away, gay or not, they are not forced to perform the ceremony.

And there's always civil marriage that gays are currently not entitled to in this country.
 
can someone sum up the article please? read page 1, seems a bit pointless when majority of the suicides were not even people of a 'gay' persuasion.
 
Indeed, but that's not what is happening, unless I've missed something, a church can still turn you away, gay or not, they are not forced to perform the ceremony.

And there's always civil marriage that gays are currently not entitled to in this country.

You're correct, a church can turn you away but some proposals have been that they would be "forced" to offer the option to gay couples which would somewhat fly in the face of their choice not to decline whoever they want.

No you can't. Straight people can't have civil partnerships.

I stand corrected again, I had thought that it was open to all but I now see RDM's point about the inequality better. A civil union option is available to all but it's not the same in name.
 
Saddest thing is it's all based on one word in the new testiment which had been translated poorly, most modern translaters now believe it means 'marital bed' and not 'soddomy'.
(ignoring the old testiment here btw)
Cwazy.


Edit: The context is to not lie in another mans marital bed, as opposed to not lie in another mans bottom :D

I think you're confusing two separate criticisms of the traditional interpretation of two seperate verses in the Christian bible.

You seem to be referring to the verse (well, two verses but one is a copy of the other plus a death sentence) in Leviticus which is commonly interpreted along the lines of "You must not lie with another man as with a woman". The actual wording (i.e. in ancient Hebrew) is apparently quite unclear and it's apparently valid to interpret it as stating that it is ritually unclean for men to have sex with each other in a woman's bed. Sounds bizarre to us, but the relevant culture did have some strict rules about what could be done where so it's not so bizarre in the correct cultural context.

But that's not one word and it's not in the new testament.

There is an example that's one word in the new testament and that one word is the basis for 2 of the 3 NT verses generally interpreted at the moment as condemnation of homosexuality. I write "at the moment" as it has been interpreted as condemning other things in the past. ~100 years ago, for example, it was interpreted as condemning masturbation. The word in question is arsenokoitai (transliterated Greek) and its true meaning is unknown. Over the centuries, people have just chosen to pretend it means whatever they want it to mean, to give biblical support to condemning whatever they wanted to condemn. Very nice of them. The word doesn't appear in any extant Greek texts from before and the uses of it later clearly trace back to those biblical verses. Even backforming an etymology from splitting it into probable roots (which is obviously speculative) doesn't yield a clear meaning - you get something like "bedmen". It's used as one of the terms in a list and a possibly related word ('malakoi') is probably best translated into modern English as "soft" and probably refers to moral softness, so maybe arsenokoitai does mean "bedmen" and maybe that referred to men who are lazy (i.e. stayed in bed a lot). Or maybe not. Nobody knows. It could mean various things, and even that's based on a completely speculative backformed etymology with nothing supporting it.

The 3rd NT verse currently generally interpreted as condemning homosexuality isn't much better - the meaning of the words is known, but they don't really mean what they're usually interpreted as meaning (e.g. 'para physein' doesn't really mean 'unnatural'....'unusual' would probably be a better translation) and the verse as a whole, in context, doesn't really fit a general condemnation of homosexuality. Best guess appears to be that it condemns people having sex in a way they don't usually have sex, as part of a ritual for a different religion.
 
It doesn't quite give the same rights. There are some issues around pensions I believe that do not apply to civil partnerships.

No, it gives exactly the same rights and responsibilities. It is explicitly defined that way.

The issue with pensions is that it is not generally allowed for a law to apply retroactively. There are extremely good reasons for that. For example, the increase in restrictions of ownership of weapons in the 1990s. Would you support that law being applied retroactively and used to convict people for owning weapons in the 1970s that were legal then but had been made illegal in the 1990s increase in restrictions, even though they no longer owned the weapons?

In the case of civil partnerships and pensions, the law was applied retroactively to some extent, but not absolutely. So, for example, a person who has been in a homosexual relationship for 25 years and has been paying into a private pension for 25 years and who has a widow's pension provision in that pension can't force their pension scheme to treat them as having been in a civil partnership for 25 years (i.e. long before the law was passed) for the purposes of calculating the pension due to their partner.

That aside the fact that we are now in a situation of "seperate but equal" which I personally do not feel is healthy. Would you accept a special type of marriage just for black people?

I'd rather have rights than a fight. I don't care if the forms call it "marriage", "civil partnership" or "wibblyboodeedoo". People who will accept homosexual marriages call them marriages regardless of what the form says. People who won't accept them won't call them marriages regardless of what the form says. So it doesn't matter in any way at all what the form says.

"seperate but equal" refers to situations that are not really equal, i.e. it's an excuse. That's not the case in this situation.

I don't think anyone but the most ardent of gay rights activists want to force religious institutions to preside over gay marriages but don't you think it would be nice if they could choose to do so?

No. As long as marriage has any legal and political status, it should be covered by law and politics, i.e. government departments. I certainly don't think it's nice to have religious institutions with that power.

Giving a religious blessing to a marriage is what should be where religious organisations are involved, not in law and politics. So I think it would be nice to remove them from heterosexual weddings too.

Thankfully we are not in the same position as the US but we are still allowing religious institutions to force their beliefs on to those that have no interest in them. Your reliogion is against homosexuality? Fine, dont marry someone of the same gender, however you shouldnt be allowed to tell others who they can and cannot marry.

I'm generally opposed to religion and would prefer it didn't exist, but even I wouldn't remove freedom of speech from it. I'd leave them free to tell me who I can and cannot marry and myself free to tell them they are morally wrong, irrational and harmful.
 
4/9 were homosexuals. also 13 years old seems a bit precocious to be talking about "definitive" sexuality, kids may have questions about sexuality at that age but seriously lack experience and certainly to proclaim themselves one way or the other seems a bit premature

Did you not know if you were straight at 13?
 
I'm generally opposed to religion and would prefer it didn't exist, but even I wouldn't remove freedom of speech from it. I'd leave them free to tell me who I can and cannot marry and myself free to tell them they are morally wrong, irrational and harmful.

Bad phrasing on my part, I meant "stop" rather than "tell".
 
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