Derek Chauvin murder trial (Police officer who arrested George Floyd)

[iamtheoneneo]

The prosecution have feelings and emotion, the defence have evidence and facts.

We are at that point are we. Almost sounds like a Trumpism.

 

[dowie]

Whatever I mean by it, it's not the Nazis

I'm talking about socialist policies, values etc[...]

That’s a non answer to be fair, he’s essentially asking what you consider to be socialist policies, it is somewhat circular to then just refer to them without any new information beyond not the Nazis. Might be better if you guys could carry on this discussion in a separate thread though

 

[Angilion]

That’s a non answer to be fair, he’s essentially asking what you consider to be socialist policies, it is somewhat circular to then just refer to them without any new information beyond not the Nazis. Might be better if you guys could carry on this discussion in a separate thread though

Fair point. It's gone way off topic for this thread.

 

[inogen]

That’s a non answer to be fair, he’s essentially asking what you consider to be socialist policies, it is somewhat circular to then just refer to them without any new information beyond not the Nazis. Might be better if you guys could carry on this discussion in a separate thread though

I've already said I consider policies that are in the best interest of society (or genuinely considered by consensus, eg free education, healthcare, collective ownership and provision of etc) as being socialist. It's a tautology, but that's what the actual etymology of the word is. Social as opposed to individual. I do not accept that governments that frame their minority interest policies as being in the best interest of society (like the Nazis did) as being socialist because they're not, in any sense of the word, as it used, either to describe modern social democracy or policy or in notional extremity a la Marx. What I consider "socialist" is neither here nor there in that regard and what I think about that is irrelevant to the point of contention.

Or in short... not the Nazis whichever way you look at it, so it wasn't a non-answer at all. But yes, I agree it's off topic so I'll leave it there.

 

[deuse]

I've already said I consider policies that are in the best interest of society (or genuinely considered by consensus, eg free education, healthcare, collective ownership and provision of etc) as being socialist. It's a tautology, but that's what the actual etymology of the word is. Social as opposed to individual. I do not accept that governments that frame their minority interest policies as being in the best interest of society (like the Nazis did) as being socialist because they're not, in any sense of the word, as it used, either to describe modern social democracy or policy or in notional extremity a la Marx. What I consider "socialist" is neither here nor there in that regard and what I think about that is irrelevant to the point of contention.

Or in short... not the Nazis whichever way you look at it, so it wasn't a non-answer at all. But yes, I agree it's off topic so I'll leave it there.

Lets stick on topic guys

 

[Nasher]

Haha so your opinion is "the prosecution have feelings and emotion, the defence have evidence and facts" and you expect me to take that well thought out opinion seriously?

Where did I say people aren't allowed to have a different opinion? I am allowed to disagree with their opinion as they are with mine. In fact why am I even replying to this post as it is nonsense. There, that is my opinion of your post. Feel free to disagree.

The prosecution team really does not come across as professional as the defence.

 

[MissChief]

My thoughts are this is unlikely to be the first time he’s done this either, just this time something bad happened. When someone is handcuffed and face down in the street he’s not getting up and running away. It is next to impossible to get up from that position without using your hands. To have your knee on his neck amounts to cruel and unusual punishment. To have it on his neck for nearly nine minutes, including when paramedics are on the scene checking for a pulse implies there was no attempt whatsoever on Chauvin’s part to ensure Floyd wasn’t dead, or preserve his duty of care. Even if the guy doesn’t get found guilty of murder, he shouldn’t be working as a police officer anywhere else, ever.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

When someone is handcuffed and face down in the street he’s not getting up and running away. It is next to impossible to get up from that position without using your hands

For a man of GF it maybe hard for him to get up in that position. But your blanket statement is incorrect it is not impossible or even close to impossible. It is not too difficult to leverage yourself up using your head and legs.

 

[Moogwai]

OK, your position is internally consistent in that respect. But it leaves socialism a non-existent thing and pretty much the whole "left wing" of politics a non-existent thing because you've put nationalisation (state ownership of business, however it's dressed up), welfare state, etc, etc into the "right wing". What's left that's "left"?

Which leads back to my point about the whole "left/right" thing being over-simplified to the point of being worse than useless. You define "left" as whatever you consider to be good and "right" as whatever you consider to be bad. You've over-simplified an over-simplified false dichotomy of an over-simplified spectrum based on economic policies and you've made it subjective and defined by you alone and not about economic policies.

What's good or useful about the idea that politics is a hyper-simplified false dichotomy with different people using different meanings and which serves only to promote conflict?



Because he died in custody for uncertain reasons. That's something to care about whatever the person was like. Besides, he was a run of the mill scumbag, not a way out there scumbag. It's not like he was a serial killer/spree killer/mass murderer/etc. But even if someone like that died in custody it would be something people should care about.

Scum bag or not, there are certain things you do and don't do.

Murder someone is one of the "don't do's" by the way.

Yeah I blurted that out in irritation at the media making him out to be some kind of hero and basing it on his armed robbery conviction. On reflection it was a bit over the top and I've actually looked into his past a bit more, looks like he had tried to get himself together in recent years but obviously had a hard time staying off the drugs.

 

[MCFC_ANDY]

tbh hes already been convicted in the media, even if someone was to try and say something to defend him you get pounced on by everyone on that band wagon, its a sad state of affairs where u cant give an opposing view without being branded a racist on anything, even voting brexit your branded a racist. it sickens me to see what the world has become

 

[Twinz]

tbh hes already been convicted in the media, even if someone was to try and say something to defend him you get pounced on by everyone on that band wagon, its a sad state of affairs where u cant give an opposing view without being branded a racist on anything, even voting brexit your branded a racist. it sickens me to see what the world has become

I think the "racist" label gets thrown around so quickly that it no longer carries much weight.

People have caught onto its use as a tactic to silence opposition. While it's difficult for public figures to defend themselves with sound bites, the format of a forum like this one makes it easy to call people out when they try to use this tactic against you.

 

[MissChief]

For a man of GF it maybe hard for him to get up in that position. But your blanket statement is incorrect it is not impossible or even close to impossible. It is not too difficult to leverage yourself up using your head and legs.

But be able to do it without being noticed? In the blink of an eye, with four or five Cops around you? A knee on his back would have stopped him, IMO there was zero, ZERO requirement for a knee on his neck for nine minutes.

 

[Felon]

But be able to do it without being noticed? In the blink iPod an eye, with four or five Cops around you? A knee on his back would have stopped him, IMO there was zero, ZERO requirement for a knee on his neck for nine minutes.

I think this is the key point.

At the end of the day, it seems that the knee on the neck as a restraining technique isn’t the issue - if somebody is being extremely violent and needs to be restrained with force, then it’s probably justified, to incapacitate and restrain a violent individual.

The problem here, is that he continued to kneel on his neck long after he became unresponsive, I’m struggling to see (now I’ve listened to many of the arguments) that this level of force was justified and reasonable.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

But be able to do it without being noticed? In the blink of an eye, with four or five Cops around you? A knee on his back would have stopped him, IMO there was zero, ZERO requirement for a knee on his neck for nine minutes.

You said it was impossible to stand from that position and I addressed that specific point.
I never said he could get up without being noticed. I never said he should put his knee on his back for 9 minutes or even implied that is it was okay.

Don't try to put words in my mouth

 

[Cooler running]

This will end up messy I fear.

I suspect that they will try and make an example of him, although I will admit the evidence I've seen is damning.

The video which has circulated of it is real heart wrenching stuff, it's difficult to stay calm and objective in the face of human suffering.

 

[dowie]

The problem here, is that he continued to kneel on his neck long after he became unresponsive, I’m struggling to see (now I’ve listened to many of the arguments) that this level of force was justified and reasonable.

I don’t think it was reasonable, I think if an assault charge was in the table too (and frankly should have been) then he’d be guilty of that. He may be guilty of manslaughter.

Thing is the first bit of it probs was reasonable so we’re now talking about a bit longer than necessary, that’s doesn’t necessarily constitute felony assault/2nd degree murder etc...

Plus we still have the reasonable doubt re: the medical evidence and what happened to Floyd during his similar arrest in 2019. Will be interesting to see when the defence present that. So far we’ve had lots of prosecution witnesses/arguments and lots of it emotive etc...

 

[Skunkworks]

Chauvin’s going to prison because they’ve dug up some tax stuff. I doubt any murder charge will stick, negligent homicide would have been more appropriate. Having said that, the jury demographics are tilted toward the prosecution – lots of young and female who are more likely to respond to the emotional side.

 

[rubberduck]

If reasonable doubt allowed OJ Simpson to avoid murder charges, I dare say Chauvin shouldn't be having any trouble sleeping!

 

[Felon]

Thing is the first bit of it probs was reasonable so we’re now talking about a bit longer than necessary, that’s doesn’t necessarily constitute felony assault/2nd degree murder etc...

Yeah this seems to be the dilemma, it’s quite clear to me that Chauvin didn’t go out intent on killing George floyd, and I don’t think he was actually trying to kill him. It seems things just went way too far and floyd was way more fragile and weak than he appeared to be.

Whether or not the jury will think that constitutes 2nd degree or not we’ll have to wait and see.

 

[Felon]

If reasonable doubt allowed OJ Simpson to avoid murder charges, I dare say Chauvin shouldn't be having any trouble sleeping!

For me OJ was as guilty as hell, it was obvious. The problem was the LAPD were just awful, absolutely awful - with Rodney king still raw in peoples minds, then the horror of Mark Fuhrman, and a half baked prosecution, it was just a nonsense trial lol.