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DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

MjFrosty said:
Hallock is dancing around the question because politically it's blindingly obvious what the answer is, it's a political nightmare. But as usual the AMD ivory tower hypocrisy is giant when it comes to this entire subject.
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You're again (deliberately?) confusing the release of a Mantle SDK and the opensourcing or licensing of Mantle. Either you are doing this because it fits your agenda of anti-AMD/pro-Nvidia sentiment, or you are genuinely ignorant of what these two very different things are.
 
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No, I'm aware it won't be open source. You're deliberately deflecting by asking me what a development kit does. Let me create a simpler run down for you

Mantle will never be out sourced.

Mantle will never be fully fledged as an open standard due to hardware being directly connected to source.

Nvidia will never adopt Mantle

Mantle will eventually struggle to maintain relevance, and will die.

Finally, ask me again what that has to do with a public SDK, just for old times sake :)
 
MjFrosty said:
Finally, ask me again what that has to do with a public SDK, just for old times sake :)
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Because you keep saying (as you did originally) that there will never be a Mantle SDK, and then deflecting by saying Mantle won't ever become an opensourced or industry standard API. The two things are not connected nor mutually exclusive or inclusive. You don't need one for the other.

There's a huge difference between not being supported by Nvidia (unless it get integrated into DX), and not being supported by anyone because there is no SDK. You're trying to equate not being supported by Nvidia as the same as not being supported by anyone.
 
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Boomstick777 said:
http://gamingbolt.com/dx12-may-allo...ender-ray-tracing-superfog-and-custom-effects
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A lot of noise about the xBox One and DX 12, nothing about PC, what did i say about Microsoft looking after their Game Console Interests?

You know what they are doing. they are creating a Console API that has parity with the PC API to make it easy for developers to cross platform, just as long as its between the PC / xBox One, this puts one over on the PS4 which is selling twice as many units as the XB1.

This does not mean we will get all of its benefits, being on PC.

To add to that, the XB1 is running an AMD architecture. if they are developing DX12 for the XB1 it may well not come off so well on an Nvidia GPU.
 
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MjFrosty said:
I didn't say there would never be an SDK. That would be silly as there already is one. ;)

http://m.techradar.com/news/computi...g-api-to-become-the-industry-standard-1218560

Have a read, it touches on a lot, including the road blocks.
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MjFrosty said:
It hasn't got anything to do with it? It was a separate point. There won't be a fully fledged public SDK. So stop your jabbering.


If you're so sure I'm wrong then you only have to wait, don't you. :)

http://www.ngohq.com/news/24495-amd-to-keep-mantle-sdk-private.html
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"I didn't say there wouldn't be a SDK".... quotes you saying there wouldn't be a public sdk, spent the entire thread arguing with someone there would be no made more widely available SDK. When realised that point was ridiculous and daft, pretends you were making a different point the entire time and tries to use semantics to suggest it's not what he meant the whole time despite loads of posts in response to specific arguments that make your argument exceptionally clear.

I honestly can't be arsed to go back and quote, and quote, and quote ALL the posts in which you weren't talking about open standards, open source, Nvidia adopting it. You spent post, after post, after post saying things along the lines of

"there won't be a public SDK", "mantle will fail if they don't promote distribution" while insinuating they are actively refusing to do this based off all the quotes where AMD says they will absolutely do this. You kept mentioning and linking to and inferring that refusing someone access to the END OF an alpha means AMD are refusing to let new people see an SDK and implying(via all your other statements on the failure coming if they don't) they aren't planning to release an SDK to more devs.

You spent like 3 pages saying all these things.... and when called on it time and time again, and when probably realising the ridiculousness of it we get back to the time and tested "I never said that, I was making this other different argument the entire time">

Rubbish.
 
Yeah, the old "that's what I said, but it's not what I really meant" card. :rolleyes: Next he'll be saying it was "all just a big joke". I can put that alongside "just read between the lines and make up what I want".
 
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It's not worth bringing it up again. That GameWorks thread is a cracking example of people believing everything they read, though. By Q4 there still won't be any sign of the 'you know what'. It's still very much a cracking R&D project for AMD with plenty of concurrent cash cows within everyone's favourite publisher. Shame, would have loved to see Arma 3 under Mantle.

I can't blame AMD fans for believing PR over little ol me, but people sure do like to take them at their word as if it's the hand of god. Quite the contrast to their chums in Santa Clara.

I am fully aware of how crap DX is in its current form, so I don't have any illusions there. Doesn't mean I have to get on the Mantle hype train. Been around far too long for that nonsense.
 
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MjFrosty said:
Lol quoting the post then typing it out differently beneath. Great work DM. Entertain yourselves and I'll be back to show you I was right soon enough .;)

just to be clear, there won't be a public SDK
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Really, you should hope Mantle does well. DX has been stagnant for years and doesn't even properly support multi-core CPUs, but if Mantle takes off, there's little doubt that you will see the same thing from Nvidia or Microsoft in the next year or two. You will benefit from that, even if it takes a little longer for the green team to catch up.
 
Mantles progress isn't anything but a good thing, but that doesn't mean I have to agree or believe everything AMD tells me ;). I think they know they're on a good run just how things are right now, and for the foreseeable future. Hallock has said on a few occasions that they're perfectly ok with somebody else taking the helm (referring to alternative API) If I'm wrong I'm wrong, I'll just have to live with it :D
 
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Of course they are Frosty, they will still get the benefits from it (their CPUs would be all of the sudden more than enough for gaming as well) and don't have to invest much in further developing the API. However, after all this talk and muscle flexing, I would still need to see some "next gen" games to use all this cr*p dx, mantle, opengl and so on. Nothing big has happen recently, just keeping the same beat from the past, same bad practices and attitude. At this rate, which api is better tends to get... redundant. :)
 
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Last warning.

Any more off topic rubbish, Trolling, thread derailment will be meet with a suspension with no more warnings given.

If suspension doesn't work and it continues then access to this sub forum will be removed for the members causing problems.

If you think you are being singled out, picked on or anything else that could be considered "trolling" then just RTM it. Do not bite back, stay on the topic of the thread you are posting in.
 
spankingtexan said:
Just got an awful feeling we'll have to get Windows 9 and a GTX 880 for DX12, fingers crossed I'm totally wrong but already looking to sell me sisters body just in case. :D
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No I think you are totally right, I don't think Maxwell will be DX12 as they would have been designed long ago.
 
spankingtexan said:
Just got an awful feeling we'll have to get Windows 9 and a GTX 880 for DX12, fingers crossed I'm totally wrong but already looking to sell me sisters body just in case. :D
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I'm looking forwards to windows 9, it should be a nice leap from windows 7 with DX 12 being more efficient.
 
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Final8y said:
I'm looking forwards to windows 9, it should be a nice leap from windows 7 with DX 12 being more efficient.
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Have to wait on two things there, see if MS have reversed their trend of having no idea who their demographic is, and seeing if the proposed improvements are any good.

Windows 9, I know they've backtracked and tried to appease desk top users with 8.1, but I wouldn't be surprised if their belief is that time and familiarity will mean they eventually push out another Windows 8 touch/mobile feel because that is where they are reading their market.... incorrectly. Companies that completely screw over their existing user base(desktop/server/laptop) to try and win a market they are ill suited to(mobile) winds me up. Make a mobile OS, sure, but don't try and force your existing user base into a new meh OS, make both. If you want to compete in both markets commit to it, don't try to merge them because that has been a shockingly poor decision. MS just consistently makes these wrong calls of late "lets put the money into kinect and edram and end up 50% down on gpu performance..... for a gaming system". I'd actually like to see them get back on track but they've been this way for so long now.

6 months before Mantle was released I was talking up my hope of PS4/AMD together making a push for openGL(improved) to take over and offer us gaming on any platform we want. Mantle is merely another giant step over what i wanted and thought could happen in the first place.

If Mantle was never released my hope was for DX to effectively die(over time) and give the industry control of the API, not MS, and allow us a choice of Windows/linux/android(further into the future)/even OSX.

So while I'll take a better DX while I'm still stuck on windows for gaming, my wish has always been for a cross platform API. I'd prefer Mantle over openGL as frankly most software tends to do better when it's both highly focused and starts fresh every now and then.

Carmack has spoken repeatedly about openGL driver nightmares, getting extensions approved being a fight to the death(too many parties involved), about the openGL group refusing the chance to start fresh on several occasion, a huge amount of legacy code and many dev's, Carmack included, has asked for a low latency, low overhead and low level access API.

That is really all I want except I also want a industry controlled standard, not an MS locked down one.

I also said when Mantle was announced, probably worst case scenario was it actually made MS commit more resources and stop holding DX back. If DX12 is great and we're still locked to windows, we're still WAY better off than a year ago, presuming DX 12 delivers.

Hell, if gaming wasn't locked to windows and MS wasn't getting, automatically, new Windows sales every year from their locking DX to a new version....... MS might actually put some work into Windows, creating a lightweight uber performance system. With less ability to force people to upgrade they would actually have to focus on features and performance to persuade people they should upgrade.... win win win, win. okay I lost count of the wins but it's good any which way you look at it.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Have to wait on two things there, see if MS have reversed their trend of having no idea who their demographic is, and seeing if the proposed improvements are any good.

Windows 9, I know they've backtracked and tried to appease desk top users with 8.1, but I wouldn't be surprised if their belief is that time and familiarity will mean they eventually push out another Windows 8 touch/mobile feel because that is where they are reading their market.... incorrectly. Companies that completely screw over their existing user base(desktop/server/laptop) to try and win a market they are ill suited to(mobile) winds me up. Make a mobile OS, sure, but don't try and force your existing user base into a new meh OS, make both. If you want to compete in both markets commit to it, don't try to merge them because that has been a shockingly poor decision. MS just consistently makes these wrong calls of late "lets put the money into kinect and edram and end up 50% down on gpu performance..... for a gaming system". I'd actually like to see them get back on track but they've been this way for so long now.

6 months before Mantle was released I was talking up my hope of PS4/AMD together making a push for openGL(improved) to take over and offer us gaming on any platform we want. Mantle is merely another giant step over what i wanted and thought could happen in the first place.

If Mantle was never released my hope was for DX to effectively die(over time) and give the industry control of the API, not MS, and allow us a choice of Windows/linux/android(further into the future)/even OSX.

So while I'll take a better DX while I'm still stuck on windows for gaming, my wish has always been for a cross platform API. I'd prefer Mantle over openGL as frankly most software tends to do better when it's both highly focused and starts fresh every now and then.

Carmack has spoken repeatedly about openGL driver nightmares, getting extensions approved being a fight to the death(too many parties involved), about the openGL group refusing the chance to start fresh on several occasion, a huge amount of legacy code and many dev's, Carmack included, has asked for a low latency, low overhead and low level access API.

That is really all I want except I also want a industry controlled standard, not an MS locked down one.

I also said when Mantle was announced, probably worst case scenario was it actually made MS commit more resources and stop holding DX back. If DX12 is great and we're still locked to windows, we're still WAY better off than a year ago, presuming DX 12 delivers.

Hell, if gaming wasn't locked to windows and MS wasn't getting, automatically, new Windows sales every year from their locking DX to a new version....... MS might actually put some work into Windows, creating a lightweight uber performance system. With less ability to force people to upgrade they would actually have to focus on features and performance to persuade people they should upgrade.... win win win, win. okay I lost count of the wins but it's good any which way you look at it.
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Indeed and hopefully with the competition from mantle, OpenGL because of SteamOS and Android, Microsoft will put more effort into the API than they have in the past.
 
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