DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

Silent_Scone · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:22

shankly1985 said:
I have seen couple times AMD stating because of the GCN in the console is what helps development of Mantle on PC when porting games.

Yep, so have I. And it's a load of rubbish lol.

ICDP · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:28

Some people think AMD brought mantle in so they could sell more GPUs. They did it to remove the massive performance deficit between Intel and AMD CPUs. CPUs are a far bigger market than GPUs and if AMD can make their CPUs a more attractive option then they stand to make a hefty profit.

AMD aren't making this an AMD vs Nvidia thing. Only the usual Nvidia fans are.

shankly1985 · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:29

MjFrosty said:
Yep, so have I. And it's a load of rubbish lol.

Am sorry but what gives you the degree to rubbish something? AMD have clearly said it in Events and the Slides that come with the events.

Why would they have it on these slides when has you said is Rubbish? What's your background in this? do you Develop games etc?
Not having ago here I be honest I dont have a clue and can only go from what I read and I will believe a company that is in the gaming market before a guy on OCUK forum.

shankly1985 · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:31

ICDP said:
Some people think AMD brought mantle in so they could sell more GPUs. They did it to remove the massive performance deficit between Intel and AMD CPUs. CPUs are a far bigger market than GPUs and if AMD can make their CPUs a more attractive option then they stand to make a hefty profit.

AMD aren't making this an AMD vs Nvidia thing. Only the usual Nvidia fans are.

But I running Intel i7 and I just had a friend who jumped from AMD CPU because I was getting better performance in BF4 under Both Mantle and DirectX.

So nothing has changed there.

humbug · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:34

MjFrosty said:
Yep, so have I. And it's a load of rubbish lol.

AMD have said GCN in consoles will help with Desktop Gaming development.

That is exactly what is happening now, After years of Direct X under development Microsoft are finally caving in and teaming up with the side that have been screaming at Microsoft to do exactly what they now are.

Gregster · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:37

humbug said:
AMD have said GCN in consoles will help with Desktop Gaming development.

That is exactly what is happening now, After years of Direct X under development Microsoft are finally caving in and teaming up with the side that have been screaming at Microsoft to do exactly what they now are.

Where are you getting your information from? These facts seem a little far fetched to me.

ubersonic · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:40

Martini1991 said:
Mantle in DX means it has to work in Nvidia doesn't it? Or they just won't bother.

Hopefully if Mantle does get incorporated into DX then Microsoft will allow Nvidia to submit an equivalent API to also be incorporated, this would work well as it would let DX take different fine tuning paths depending which hardware is present.

Silent_Scone · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:40

humbug said:
AMD have said GCN in consoles will help with Desktop Gaming development.

That is exactly what is happening now, After years of Direct X under development Microsoft are finally caving in and teaming up with the side that have been screaming at Microsoft to do exactly what they now are.

That's Mantles undoing, nothing to do with GCN in consoles. Two completely different kettles.

PC discrete GPU architecture has been in consoles for generations now. Hasn't made anyone look twice at the PC market till now (Mantle)

humbug · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:41

Gregster said:
Where are you getting your information from? These facts seem a little far fetched to me.

Is it not AMD, Johan Anderson and Dan Baker who are working with Microsoft to create a low level access Direct X API? is that not what has been asked of Microsoft by the gaming industry for years?

What we are talking about here are the facts.

Gregster · 13 Mar 2014 at 13:49

humbug said:
Is it not AMD, Johan Anderson and Dan Baker who are working with Microsoft to create a low level access Direct X API? is that not what has been asked of Microsoft by the gaming industry for years?

What we are talking about here are the facts.

Fair points. I just can't see them using Mantle is all but Ubersonic hits a good point and no reason DX12 can't have differing architectures catered for. Maybe Mantle will be in DX12

ICDP · 13 Mar 2014 at 14:17

shankly1985 said:
But I running Intel i7 and I just had a friend who jumped from AMD CPU because I was getting better performance in BF4 under Both Mantle and DirectX.

So nothing has changed there.

It might not be parity, but the deficit is definitely reduced by Mantle. Not everyone can afford a new MB and i7 CPU. All AMD need is to make the deficit less embarrassing and they will have succeeded in opening up an until now almost locked market for their CPUs

If Mantle is adopted by enough AAA games it will make AMD CPUs much more viable to gamers. The revenue gained by increasing CPU sales by even 10% would be massive for AMD.

IMHO, right now as a gamer, if you purchase even a mid range GPU an AMD CPU is not a viable option. If Mantle succeeds then it is a viable option to skimp on CPU price and put the difference towards a higher end GPU. This would put AMD CPUs back on the radar of PC gamers.

Silent_Scone · 13 Mar 2014 at 14:28

That is certainly what they've decided to pitch, so can't argue there.

Anything can be made faster if you give it a steep enough hill to go down. Just means the more capable will go down it even faster

*Flinches*

shankly1985 · 13 Mar 2014 at 14:41

ICDP said:
It might not be parity, but the deficit is definitely reduced by Mantle. Not everyone can afford a new MB and i7 CPU. All AMD need is to make the deficit less embarrassing and they will have succeeded in opening up an until now almost locked market for their CPUs

If Mantle is adopted by enough AAA games it will make AMD CPUs much more viable to gamers. The revenue gained by increasing CPU sales by even 10% would be massive for AMD.

IMHO, right now as a gamer, if you purchase even a mid range GPU an AMD CPU is not a viable option. If Mantle succeeds then it is a viable option to skimp on CPU price and put the difference towards a higher end GPU. This would put AMD CPUs back on the radar of PC gamers.

But even when a mate was running same GPU's and only difference was the CPU his AMD and my i7 I still performed better.
It would seem even when Mantle is running on a AMD cpu it still falls short of intel.

shankly1985 · 13 Mar 2014 at 14:42

MjFrosty said:
That is certainly what they've decided to pitch, so can't argue there.

Anything can be made faster if you give it a steep enough hill to go down. Just means the more capable will go down it even faster

*Flinches*

Can you answer my question above to you? I would like to hear you part.

ICDP · 13 Mar 2014 at 14:57

shankly1985 said:
But even when a mate was running same GPU's and only difference was the CPU his AMD and my i7 I still performed better.
It would seem even when Mantle is running on a AMD cpu it still falls short of intel.

I don't dispute it was still slower, but it certainly wouldn't be such a large deficit. Most mantle reviews show AMD CPUs with R9 290X GPUs running a lot closer to even high end Intel i7 CPUs with the same R9 290X.

Mantle is still at the early stages. If AMD can garner more performance from their 6 or 8 core CPUs the performance deficit will narrow. They are still a long way from parity to Intel but if they become a viable CPU option among gamers in the future, they will have succeeded in their goal IMHO.

4737Joker · 13 Mar 2014 at 15:04

shankly1985 said:
But even when a mate was running same GPU's and only difference was the CPU his AMD and my i7 I still performed better.
It would seem even when Mantle is running on a AMD cpu it still falls short of intel.

Yeah but was it playable on the amd? Was it a high end amd chip? How much of a difference in performance? His much of a difference in price?

If someone asked you to spec a pc to run bf4 on ultra settings / 1080p at 60fps can an amd CPU be used in place of it's more expensive intel counterpart to achieve this due to mantle?

Just because your I7 performed better doesn't mean it is required to run the game, this is what makes mantle interesting and any other API that follows suit. If the hardware requirements can be lowered more people will be able to afford to step in to pc gaming.

Silent_Scone · 13 Mar 2014 at 15:04

shankly1985 said:
Can you answer my question above to you? I would like to hear you part.

Which one? I only ignored one AFAIK which is why you'd take my word over AMD. It's entirely up to you whether or not you want to believe the PR Hype train for months gone by. Microsoft already debunked what AMD started in September, amongst all the speculation that Mantle had anything-what so ever to with Xbox-One. It was spin leading up to the launch, nothing more. Not sure what else you want

AMD:

Mantle is a development environment that's *similar* to the consoles, which already offer low-level APIs

MS:

The Xbox One graphics API is “Direct3D 11.x” and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality. Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One.

Microsoft also mentions that Direct3D on the Xbox has been enhanced to reduce runtime overhead. "The result is a very streamlined, 'close to metal' level of runtime performance," it says. Even better, some of these improvements will be making their way to Windows. "We're also working with our ISV and IHV partners on future efforts," Microsoft adds, "including bringing the lightweight runtime and tooling capabilities of the Xbox One Direct3D implementation to Windows."

The similarities are enough to make the connection in a presentation but pen to paper, that is where the similarities end.

4737Joker · 13 Mar 2014 at 15:09

Not seen many links to actual statements made by either Microsoft or amd on this subject.

Is this all just the usual speculation which could potentially lead to disappointment caused by the ocuk hype train?

If anyone knows something concrete on this if love to see a link, or are we all just here posting to make the work day go quicker?

bru · 13 Mar 2014 at 15:32

4737Joker said:
Not seen many links to actual statements made by either Microsoft or amd on this subject.

Is this all just the usual speculation which could potentially lead to disappointment caused by the ocuk hype train?

If anyone knows something concrete on this if love to see a link, or are we all just here posting to make the work day go quicker?

You gotto love speculation.

The only thing concrete that we know for certain is that AMD, Intel, Nvidia and Qualcomm are all involved and it has something to do with the Xboxone and windows.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/p/directx12.aspx

shankly1985 · 13 Mar 2014 at 15:35

MjFrosty said:
Which one? I only ignored one AFAIK which is why you'd take my word over AMD. It's entirely up to you whether or not you want to believe the PR Hype train for months gone by. Microsoft already debunked what AMD started in September, amongst all the speculation that Mantle had anything-what so ever to with Xbox-One. It was spin leading up to the launch, nothing more. Not sure what else you want

AMD:

MS:

The similarities are enough to make the connection in a presentation but pen to paper, that is where the similarities end.

You missing the point

AMD are saying they all use the same GCN and the code written for this helps with porting of games to the PC.
I not talking about API

Port authority

One of the final benefits that AMD laid out in its Mantle presentation at AMD Hawaii was that the API can leverage optimization work from next-gen game consoles to PCs.
Because Graphics Core Next has been around for a few years, game developed already know what to expect from the Mante's GCN-based architecture.
"That means it will allow those same developers to utilize that knowledge gained and leverage that to shorten the learning curve and development cycle," said Corpus.
"The experience of developing on Mantle of GCN arch could help improve and speed up the ports that are happening between consoles and the PC."
Faster porting times, lower development costs, and the ability to work on other pressing issues is all going to benefit the end user when a game comes out.

http://www.techradar.com/news/compu...w-level-api-with-high-level-potential-1190692