The Sony Use Their own API for the PS4, what applies to the XB1 has nothing to do with the PS4
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DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead
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The Sony Use Their own API for the PS4, what applies to the XB1 has nothing to do with the PS4
Caporegime
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The consoles will already be using more efficient API's than Mantle is......
Thanks humbug !!
Your welcome 
^^^^
Thats your speculation, and Microsoft are dumping the XP1 API for one Mantle creators are going to help them develop.
If the XB1 API is more efficient, why are Microsoft asking for Mantles help?
They aren't going to dump an API for one that's less efficient.
^^^^Thats your speculation, and Microsoft are dumping the XP1 API for one Mantle creators are going to help them develop.
If the XB1 API is more efficient, why are Microsoft asking for Mantles help?
They aren't going to dump an API for one that's less efficient.
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Caporegime
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Your welcome
Thats your speculation, and Miscrosoft are dumping the XP1 API for one Mantle creators are going to help them develop.
If the XB1 API is more efficient, why are Microsoft asking for Mantles help?
GCN is AMD's, who best to help them create an API to get the most out of the console? (I'm speculating of course) they want to get an API that's as close to the metal as possible (Mantle isn't that really, it's in no way near the same level as what happens in consoles)
Did AMD help Microsoft at all with the Xbox 360 (I expect they did)
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So they would be asking Mantle developers to create an API thats more efficient than what Currently in the XB1.
You don't know how close to the metal Mantle is, but you want me to believe that you do, you want me to believe that your not just speculating. so how do you know?
Unless you can tell me you work for AMD or Microsoft i'm having a very hard time taking your position as fact.
Caporegime
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And you want me to believe that what you're saying is more than speculation 
So discussion is a none starter.
But from a logical stand point, how can Mantle (As we know it, as currently is) be all that close to the metal (You know, the varying amounts of set ups etc......).
The consoles don't have that, they've got a set piece of hardware (Hence why they've been able to squeeze as much as they have out of the "Last gen" consoles)
So discussion is a none starter.
But from a logical stand point, how can Mantle (As we know it, as currently is) be all that close to the metal (You know, the varying amounts of set ups etc......).
The consoles don't have that, they've got a set piece of hardware (Hence why they've been able to squeeze as much as they have out of the "Last gen" consoles)
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No, what i am saying IS speculation.And you want me to believe that what you're saying is more than speculation
So discussion is a none starter.
Its what we do here...
The XB1 API MIGHT be more efficient, or it MIGHT not, all i do know is Miscrosoft are asking Anderson, AMD and baker (all Mentle proprietors) to develop DX12.
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Caporegime
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I'm speculating that you've speculated that.
Soldato
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But if DirectX 12 doesn't support any more GPUs than Mantle would've why does it matter what it's called?
Surely the reason DirectX is used as widely as it it is because it's the best API that supports the most hardware? If developers know that a game using DirectX 123 will only run on the same hardware that would run Mantle, why are they any more likely to use it than Mantle? Surely what will decide if an API is successful is how much it's used? If it's not used because it's not supported then how will it be successful?
I guess it leads to the question of what decides how much an API gets used and who is then under pressure to use it?
Is it the case that if developers use the API and Nvidia/Intel doesn't support it, then Nvidia/Intel will lose business when everyone buys AMD so they can play the games? Or is it that if Nvidia/Intel don't support it then developers won't use it (as the sole API) because they want to appeal to as wide an audience as possible?
I guess this depends a bit on if all developers agree to use it or not, if all (or a significantly large number of) developers use it then the pressure is on Nvidia/Intel. But if it's just a few developers then it's possible for Nvidia/Intel owners to just avoid your game because the other developers will still sell them their games.
I'm still not convinced that calling it DirectX will change this much over calling it Mantle. How much is in a name? It's not like Microsoft dictate the standard that must be adhered to, it's just that in the past nobody has come up with anything better.
Caporegime
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Your welcome
Thats your speculation, and Microsoft are dumping the XP1 API for one Mantle creators are going to help them develop.
If the XB1 API is more efficient, why are Microsoft asking for Mantles help?
They aren't going to dump an API for one that's less efficient.
Firstly they aren't dumping anything, they are upgrading ONE of the API's on the console for another one. They are upgrading the least efficient API on the Xb1 for another more efficient one.
All the consoles that I've read into any detail on(last couple gens) have more than one API. PS3/360/XB1, you have the low level to the metal API, and you have a higher level abstract API.
Remember dice and AMD making the point that Mantle isn't for everyone, not every game is performance dependant, not every game pushes boundaries. Thousands of games get made for which simplicity and cost are the determining factors, realistically we're talking about most indie games. Nothing stopping an indie developer using Mantle but there isn't a whole lot of benefit. For indies, small game devs they may not want the added control, nor have the required experience to handle further control of the hardware.
The 360 had a low level uber efficient loosely DX based API for any/most performance games, it offered more performance and more control. They also offered something akin to DX9 afaik, which your indie devs would be more likely to use.
DX12, if anything, will be an upgrade to the higher level more abstract API on the console, it won't replace the lower level to the metal API as there isn't much to be gained or much difficulty in writing an API that exposes to the metal features
Of course MS wants to put a "new" feature as a checkbox mark on the console as it sounds good, but it's mostly meaningless.
I expect DX12 IF it exposes low level stuff well(at this point a complete unknown) to need to be scalable as there will still be the case of many many hundreds of indie/small game devs that don't want nor need low level control of the hardware. For the most part on consoles this optional lower level access of DX12 will be mostly meaningless, guys who only want high level access and less control.... will still want less control and already have the lower level option. PS3 was the same with openGL, both a low level API based loosely on it and AFAIK relatively standard higher level openGL for the same reasons.
This is all also assuming a loosely written description can in fact be interpreted as MS asking these guys for help making DX12, which is far from a given from the description of said talks.
MS have talked to and worked with game dev's, AMD, Nvidia and maybe even Intel when working on most previous versions of DX, it wouldn't be surprising to ask for input from these guys and others on making a new DX.
Actually the new API is described as the Low level API, so the DX11.2 based API the XB1 currently uses is likely to be the higher level API.
Soldato
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If you think it is madness then I really cant help you.
Nvidia absolutely wont touch mantle while AMD control it, THAT would be madness, it would be business suicide.
Khronos havent exactly covered themselves in glory with OpenGL, and i'm interested to know who you think this mystical group of "Game Devs" are that "control DX" because you may as well replace Game Devs with "unicorns" because that would make as much sense.
If you dont think that a new group would need to be formed, then who exactly would you hand control of Mantle?
Soldato
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Actually, the existing xbox Api is called DX 11.X and it is already the low level Api that the xbox uses, DX12 is taking "lessons learnt from the xbox Api" and making them cross platform
Obviously not low level enough. ^^^
If it ends up as part of DX they will only hurt themselves, i which case i will have no sympathy for them
If it ends up as part of DX they will only hurt themselves, i which case i will have no sympathy for them
Soldato
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Youve not answered the question. You say forming a new group is madness, so which existing group do you see as taking the reigns?
I just think 'forming a new group is madness' and thats it.
The question doesn't apply to me because i think its mad to start with, no need for anything like that.
Soldato
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Youre not making any sense. Obviously AMD cant be left in control of mantle, the very definition of the term Open API dictates that it would need to be controlled by a third party with no commercial interests (conflict of). So someone needs to control this Open API. So who?
You cant just wave your hands about excitedly saying "Game Devs", it's nonsense.
You cant just wave your hands about excitedly saying "Game Devs", it's nonsense.
Microsoft?