Disabled couple snooped on and accused of fraud by the DWP

dowie said:
If anything it's ultimately causing more friction for the genuine claimants too - there are obvious feedback loops, people learn the ins and outs of the system, share how to exploit it, the government tries to address it... that places an admin burden on everyone and so it goes on...
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One of the main reasons that there are "facebook groups" with information on how to claim is because most claimants don't have a clue how to fill the very deliberately obtuse, confusing, misleading and frankly in breach of the law (as written) forms out.
Most of the big charities for various diseases have had guides on how to fill the form in based on the sorts of issues specific to that disease for at least 20 odd years, the Citizens advice bureau used to help people fill the forms in by basically sitting with them one to one and asking both the question on the form and real world examples of how that question impacts daily life and then if needed help with appeals, IIRC they had to stop doing that about 10 years ago because basically as it was becoming too much work for their resources given the governments push to effectively say no to everyone who applied.

I've said it before there are questions in the form that are very deliberate "gotchas" and things like questions where there are two answers that are according to every English dictionary synonyms but result in different "points" (I've mentioned it before, I passed one question i was looking at with a friend on to some of my other friends, even the lawyer couldn't understand why there were two identical meaning answers - the words didn't even mean something special in legal terms).
Many people will look at the questions on the form and say "yes I can do that", without remembering that legally the question isn't "can you do this", but "can you do this safely, as required and repeatedly", so a lot of people might answer very honestly but incompletely "I can do this", when the reality is under the legal definition the form is meant to go by the answer is "no" or at best "sometimes".
For example "can you wash your hair" sounds simple, until you realise it means "can you wash your hair whenever you need to" not "can you wash it at all", same with "can you lift a pot of tea" it's not "can you do it once a day" or "can you do it but risk seriously hurting yourself", or "can you lift a can of beans" means not just once but say at the minimum unloading shopping, or more likely doing it repeatedly over a fairly long period.

Then there are the questions where the claimant needs to be exceptionally honest with not just the PIP assessor, but themselves.
It's embarrassing for most people to admit that they might not be able to get washed every day, or might struggle to to handle their toilet needs, or remember to do really basic tasks.
The assessors will also take the generic polite "I'm doing ok" when they ask the routine sounding every day question "how are you" as meaning you're ok in the normal sense, not that you're "ok" for you, or "I've got conditioned to say this by society as people tend not to want to know the level of pain i'm in*, or that I'm struggling to remain upright".

The system for getting PIP is exceptionally hostile and deliberately made so that most people won't manage to fill the form in correctly without assistance.


*I know a few people who are at pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum on that reply, one will give you a full rundown of her health and pain levels at that moment in time if you ask the question and you're a friend, and one who basically won't admit she's about to go sideways onto the floor unless she really trusts you or she's actually going over.
 
robfosters said:
You have to leave your embarrassment at the door when applying. There’s absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about anyway when you are disabled and can’t do certain things.
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Yup

But people still have pride and don't like to admit they can't do stuff, or that they've got issues especially of an intimate nature. It's one of the reasons it's so hard to get people to do even really routine things likes get a mamogram, or go to the doctor is they've got blood in the stool or pee. There are also illnesses where people have effectively been trained to not mention problems they're having because medical professionals they've seen in the past have not believed them or basically ignored them because they don't show up in a routine test or "on demand" (a friend has had intermittent extreme dizziness/almost fainting for decades and basically got used to avoiding things he knew would likely trigger it - the doctor didn't believe him but apparently it's now been recognised as a common symptom of a larger condition he had).

I keep having to gently talk my 80+ year old father down from wanting to trim the hedge or use the strimmer on the lawn, he needs a stick at best and more normally a walkter/stroller* ;) and i've known people that won't admit for years that they need help with certain things.


*Talking to friends it seems a fairly common one, a lot of older men won't admit they can't safely do things like gardening (my brother in law's dad wouldn't, despite the fact he kept having falls going a few meters to his bathroom).
 
The problem is that there's still too many chancers - that's the reason for the "gotcha" questions, alternatively, we have a shrinking portion of the population actually contributing and something is going to have to give - the commitment to the triple lock for pensions is bad enough though there's less scope for someone to claim to be of pensionable age when they're not.

If we're not able to distinguish well between genuine claimants and we do want to pander more to signing so many people off for mental health who'd otherwise be able to work then that's going to cost and it's going to impact both how much we're able to spend in general on benefits - in reality, there's going to be continued pressure to bring costs down.
 
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Allnamestaken said:
She exists because the system is so callous and ******* cruel that people NEED help.
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It's no different to say hiring a lawyer to help you out with something...

there's not really any services to help people fill in the forms now, back in the day for DLA you could get someone from the benefits department to do a home visit and fill out the form on your behalf..

The whole system is set up to try and prevent legitimate claims and people think it's cheating the system to be prepared? you still need the medical evidence to back you up. and lets not pretend a simple "Fitnote" could ever do that.

There's almost 0 mental health services people can access for help these days, or they would be the ones helping people with the claims.

It's not cheating or playing the system, it's common sense.


Often people with a mental health condition might not even realise their life style isn't normal... what they would write on the forms can be totally different to what an outside observer would write.
People might think it's normal to need to take breaks when doing a task, something that might take a normal person 10minutes, could take someone else a lot longer because they find it overwhelming and stressful or whatever like with cooking.
they would write they can cook a meal fine, but to an outside observer they actually struggle to accomplish the task.

Is it wrong for these people to get help with the forms and assessment?
 
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One of the issues with filling in forms and at the assessment is you feel like you're a failure by describing the things you can't do.

The forms are designed to trick you, and the temptation to play down your own disability is the perfect trap.

For example the forms asks you if you can various activities. Let us take one I remember (I'm not sure if it's a current question), you can be asked can you make a hot drink? So you have grip and muscle problems, but you think I might be able to make 1 drink lifting the kettle. So you put that on the form. The accessor sees it and assumes you have no problem at all. But the reality is you can literally only make one drink. For the rest of the day your muscles are aching and you might have to lie down for a while.

What the question should be asking you is are you able to make multiple hot drinks one after the other many times without any issues. If they had wrote the question that way you'd have written that you can't do that.

I think this "benefit dodging" is just an excuse to pick on an easy target.

For whatever reason the Conservative government have had 14 years of running every area of this country down. Interrogating the disabled is just another example.

I was born disabled. The targeting of disabled people through innuendo and repeatedly changing the system as happened all my life. Its no wonder hate crimes happen to disabled people as the government as set the tone that we're living the life of riley.
 
I could be willing to help someone to fill out a form, but I’d be wary if I was unsure that it was a genuine claim and not just trying it on.

But I’m not a doctor so I’m in no position to judge this for myself, therefore I’d probably politely decline to help as I don’t want to unknowingly assist someone in gaming the system
 
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robfosters said:
I could be willing to help someone to fill out a form, but I’d be wary if I was unsure that it was a genuine claim and not just trying it on.
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What the form says doesn't really matter, unless your lucky and they deem you have enough evidence to not need an assessment.
I think it only happens if theres a medical professional listed as a point of contact on your forms and they can be reached by a phone call

I'm sure some people do game the system, but AFAIK It's estimated to be a tiny percent of claimants.

If you want to get rid of all the fake claimants, your also condemming a lot of people who genuinely should be on disability benefits.
the ones who can't fight the system , the ones who are too scared, or whatever to be able to reach out and find someone in the NHS that can help them.


try to find some dedicated mental health unit in your local community, they don't tend to exist anymore, they disappeared like youth clubs.


Your only help is if you can badger your GP and they know where to refer you, and then how long is the queue? 1 year? 2 years?


In that position it's probably easier to decide to not live anymore.


They can find billions if they go through all the covid fraud sunak enabled, probably cheaper than hassling the poor.

but oh no then they would be going after all their friends and donors....


Culture wars are the sign of a failed government that should be long gone.


aren't they on about checking bank accounts now anyway? so anyone claiming they are house bound etc but obviously aren't will be caught out super easy surely?
 
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dowie said:
The problem is fraud is going to be things like someone stating they can barely walk and then being caught out because they take part in say a charity run or photographed carrying out physical, cash in hand work.

That either relies on people snitching or someone being actively investigated and by default that's only going to cover a small percentage of even those who might be making fraudulent claims.

The wider issue of course isn't necessarily the people who are probably taking the Mickey in such an easy-to-prove way but rather the grey areas - things like mental health or indeed where there is some underlying condition but they're milking it significantly re: the actual impact on their lives yet who can prove otherwise if they're also not working and mostly at home watching sky TV etc.. no one knows for sure what any given individual is feeling inside.

What we do know is that there are Facebook groups out there coaching people about what to say to make sure they get a claim approved. IIRC there was some trick mentioned in here re: not walking up a flight of stairs for the meeting if claiming that walking was difficult. If you've got a situation where various conditions can be claimed by asserting some symptoms and people are coaching others re: how to do that then ostensibly no one can prove otherwise, anyone who wants to make a claim can follow the script. Unless they're caught red-handed posting about their five-aside football game on facebook or seen doing cash-in-hand work then....

What we also know is that there are big disparities between groups claiming benefits:
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Now obviously there are perhaps underlying reasons that explain *some* of the differences but it is a bit farcical - Chinese seem to be super resilient compared to everyone else. Bangladeshis from the same part of the world as Indians have disabilities at nearly double the rate. It can't all be cousin marriage right? Some poverty or differences in quality of immigrant group maybe - more smart, middle-class professional types among the Indians and more unskilled average joes among the Bangladeshis and Pakistanis perhaps.

IIRC Irish travelers have a very high rate too - obviously, some of that can be attributed to lifestyle choices too - alcoholism and violence perhaps not helping much.
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Genetic disorders caused through incest in the top two more than likely. It should be totally banned by law.

 
So PIP fraud is being used to attack disabled people, including using it as an excuse to go into people's bank accounts.

It's now come out from the DWP's own data that PIP fraud is statistically nearly ZERO! The main registered fraud is due to a disabled person having a change of circumstances ie if you're taken ill in hospital you're expected to drag yourself to the nearest phone to tell them of the change of circumstance. Don't be using a heart attack or stroke as an excuse for not informing them! :rolleyes: The DWP considers that fraud, even though you are still entitled to it and would immediately get it back once leaving hospital if you'd told them.

www.bigissue.com

Almost no recorded cases of disability benefit fraud despite DWP crackdown

The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has released new statistics showing that fraud in the disability benefits system is a "non-issue"
www.bigissue.com www.bigissue.com

They are waiting for disabled people to trip up.

By their own records there is nearly zero fraud happening with PIP.

The other fraud is them repeatedly over paying people and then saying it's fraud because the person didn't immediately spot it and pay them back. I don't know about other people. But I'm not checking my account every day. I just assume the right money goes it. But it turns out if a person doesn't spot their mistake they are accused of fraud!
 
BowdonUK said:
So PIP fraud is being used to attack disabled people, including using it as an excuse to go into people's bank accounts.

It's now come out from the DWP's own data that PIP fraud is statistically nearly ZERO! The main registered fraud is due to a disabled person having a change of circumstances ie if you're taken ill in hospital you're expected to drag yourself to the nearest phone to tell them of the change of circumstance. Don't be using a heart attack or stroke as an excuse for not informing them! :rolleyes: The DWP considers that fraud, even though you are still entitled to it and would immediately get it back once leaving hospital if you'd told them.

www.bigissue.com

Almost no recorded cases of disability benefit fraud despite DWP crackdown

The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) has released new statistics showing that fraud in the disability benefits system is a "non-issue"
www.bigissue.com www.bigissue.com

They are waiting for disabled people to trip up.

By their own records there is nearly zero fraud happening with PIP.

The other fraud is them repeatedly over paying people and then saying it's fraud because the person didn't immediately spot it and pay them back. I don't know about other people. But I'm not checking my account every day. I just assume the right money goes it. But it turns out if a person doesn't spot their mistake they are accused of fraud!
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The change of circumstances one is particularly nasty as IIRC unless you've officially given someone power of attorney and authorised them with the DWP to discuss your claim the DWP will often refuse to discuss it due to "GDPR", especially if you don't have all the details to hand.
And as you say when you're in hospital with a serious medical issue even if you're conscious you don't immediately think "got to to the DWP i'm here", let alone if you're incapable or unaware of what is going on.

IIRC the number you're meant to call to inform them isn't necessarily open all the time, and often has very long wait times just to make things more fun when you're ill and trying to keep them updated.

When my mother ended up being taken to the hospital when her Alzheimer's got too bad I remember it taking quite a long time to get through to the DWP on the day we legally had to inform them (we waited because there was at the time a period in which you didn't have to inform them* and we were waiting on more information from the hospital).


*IIRC 28 days because the DWP pay all disability benefits a month in arrears from memory.
 
The DWP itself is under investigation.

www.bbc.co.uk

Disabled benefit claimants may have been mistreated - watchdog

Probe will look into cases like Errol Graham's, who starved to death after his benefits were stopped.
www.bbc.co.uk

The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)* is looking at whether the department failed to make reasonable adjustments for people with learning disabilities or long-term mental health conditions, during health assessments for some benefits.
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news.sky.com

Equalities watchdog investigating DWP over treatment of disabled people on benefits

The Equality and Human Rights Commission said it "suspects" the department "may have broken equality law" when assessing benefit claimants, as well as in its day-to-day operations.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

www.bigissue.com

DWP may have 'broken the law' over treatment of disabled people, watchdog says

Britain’s human rights watchdog will investigate whether the DWP has “broken the law” in its treatment of disabled benefits claimants.
www.bigissue.com www.bigissue.com

*This is a good example that shows who the ECHR helps the most, the British people. Don't fall for the anti immigrant ECHR rhetoric. If the government got rid of it we'd be the ones impacted most by removing our protections and ability to hold government organisations to account.
 
BowdonUK said:
So PIP fraud is being used to attack disabled people, including using it as an excuse to go into people's bank accounts.

It's now come out from the DWP's own data that PIP fraud is statistically nearly ZERO!
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As someone you gave a good honest crack at getting PIP for my ulcerative colitis and got ZERO points, I can tell you getting PIP is like getting blood from a stone. I literally need to be half dead with half my organs removed to get any sum at all. I might try again in a couple of years as Labour loves throwing money away and my chances of getting it increases.
 
Well my family friend is a GP. His view is that it is too easy to get signed off. He said many are playing the system and making the lives of those with genuine mental health issues more difficult.



1. Tell your GP that you have a mental health problem (Anxiety / depression) You have a 93% chance of getting signed off, as they are not allowed to confront you / call you a liar.


2. Pay someone to complete a pip form on your behalf. People do this for a living surprisingly and know how to play the system. They usually charge £100-£600

Enjoy many benefits such as:

Free house / flat and rent paid.

Free new disability car (replaced every 2-3 years)

Free household repairs / maintenance

Blue badge

Have as many kids as you desire, without any financial constraints / concerns.

Council tax paid / heavily discounted

Discounted broadband

Free transport / taxis to take your kids to and from school.

Free school meals

Free school uniforms

Free prescriptions

I can understand why some of the younger generation find a lifestyle on benefits enticing. Especially if you working full time earning sub £30k. I mean you have to be on £50k+ to stand any chance of getting a mortgage these days…
 
Murphy said:
93% seems awfully specific so i assume you based that on something?
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It does read very much Daily Mail.

Also the "free disability car" is an old one, given it's not exactly free as you give up most/all of your mobility component and that is IIRC harder to get than the "daily living" part especially for "mental health" issues (i'm surprised it wasn't described as a "free luxury car").
 
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Murphy said:
93% seems awfully specific so i assume you based that on something?
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Well apparently he heard it on LBC radio, as the national figure. In his 12 years he has never refused to issue a sick note / refer someone. He said GP’s are afraid to challenge people, in case they are suspended / lose ability to practice.
 
Tech_Boss said:
Well apparently he heard it on LBC radio, as the national figure. In his 12 years he has never refused to issue a sick note / refer someone. He said GP’s are afraid to challenge people, in case they are suspended / lose ability to practice.
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So you're saying it's an anecdote, of an anecdote, of an anecdote a bit like Chinese whispers but you felt confident enough in it to repeat the claim?
 
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