DLSS 5 preview

[Calin Banc]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2094125947515478452

So... PT FTW!

 

[Calin Banc]

dlss 5 + raster... not always working )

https://twitter.com/x/status/2094139781449953724

 

[imtoooldforthis]

 

[Tinek]

First I need to underline - I'm not talking about applying DLSS5 to old/existing games, to be clear, that's completely irrelevant to what I'm saying and doesn't even seem to be intended by Nvidia to happen. More power for the modding, all good, and possibly it will cause Nvidia to add it to drivers as a filter. What I'm talking about is using it in production of new games by developers themselves, as intended by Nvidia.

The part he didn't say out loud was the game's lighting is the way it is due to the performance budget they are allocated - remember this game had to be able to run on an Xbox Series S

There is something called quality slider in most games? Obviously consoles get it weaker, PC doesn't have to. He wrote a bunch of posts about it and said engine couldn't do it. Didn't say performance was the reason, but then again he's not an engineer but creative director and lead writer - ergo, an artist (and now retired and as he said himself, not giving a f. anymore).

which is equivalent in performance to a last gen console - what they achieved was amazing with the hardware but obviously they are limited by a 16ms budget for the real game, but when you are rendering a single asset as an artist you have no budget, it's not real time - you can ask any dev and they'll tell you the raw assets for their games look 100x better in their dev software than it does in the actual game, this has been the case for decade

Yes obviously. And all of that is a plus for DLSS 5... how? So, if the game engine was cut down for performance reasons and dlss5 cuts down performance by half (as the OP said himself), then what is the difference between that and just giving users a quality slider in the engine? It's not technology that didn't exist back then (it did!), it's a choice or lazy development. Artists always want more, that doesn't mean engineers are good enough to deliver. They were making that game for 7 years, there's been time to tweak, optimise, add more things - they chose not to.

And that's without even thinking of storage - even if you can do perfect lighting in a 16ms budget, you still have a question of shipping full quality assets or downgrading and compressing to save space

Again, read his posts, he says it's all already in the game, the only thing missing is proper lighting. That's exactly what he underlined allows DLSS5 to look very good in that game, as it had all the details available there and just applied proper lighting and that's the result. Gamers can't see those details only because of engine limitations.

- a game's raw assets can easily take up like 1TB+ of storage, that's 1TB for a single game. A game like GTA 6 that's a huge open world might have multiple terabytes of assets

Yes, then you apply something magical - optimization! As in, compressing things, cutting down on less relevant things and still coming out with 90%+ of artistic intent but in a package that works well on target hardware. Plenty of games did that, especially with lighting details he underlines their engine couldn't do. It's all doable, it just takes skilled engine developers which these days seem to be near none existing.

Now, just btw, he posted another thing after the post in question, about every single studio using now AI for assets, art, and engine. We already know (from artists and developers) that in many cases publishers and studios are replacing people with AI. Because I work with AI daily (that's what my 5090 is mostly used for) with a lot of creative work and coding too, I know how it works from practice. Especially that I created my own version of models, harness, tuning of the whole setup, my own fork of llama.cpp (software used to run AI models on Windows) etc. What he wrote is true, but people read it wrong - he wrote especially the most talented people use AI. In my own experience only really talented and skilled artists and engineers can use AI properly and it actually helps them to save time without twisting their vision and intent. Most common people have no clue how to use AI properly and what comes out is a total slop which usually just slows them down instead of speeding up and prevents learning. Point being, big publishers chasing cost cutting get rid of skilled artists and many skilled developers left too. Replaced by juniors or mids with AI which will result in even worse games coming out (performance and quality) - DLSS 5 will be used by those as a crutch, not optional but required for any good look. That's the future I sadly see in AAA now and it's not a good one.

 

[Tinek]

Or you could read a bit higher and see this (actual source) have been posted a few times already with whole discussion?

 

[Tinek]

dlss 5 + raster... not always working )

https://twitter.com/x/status/2094139781449953724

This is exactly what the KCD2 creative director quoted earlier said - for DLSS5 to work well in the game the assets (faces) have to contain required information and just hidden by bad engine lighting etc. Then DLSS5 can work wonders by simply exposing them properly and fixing lighting. RE doesn't have the data on faces because it's never been intended to be there apparently and it's likely by choice (for whatever reason). PT adds enough lighting information for DLSS5 to latch on and work with, it seems. That's also why Nvidia said before about this tech - PT is in some cases highly advised to get proper end result. Also, the more you buy the more you save!

 

[Calin Banc]

First I need to underline - I'm not talking about applying DLSS5 to old/existing games, to be clear, that's completely irrelevant to what I'm saying and doesn't even seem to be intended by Nvidia to happen. More power for the modding, all good, and possibly it will cause Nvidia to add it to drivers as a filter. What I'm talking about is using it in production of new games by developers themselves, as intended by Nvidia.

There is something called quality slider in most games? Obviously consoles get it weaker, PC doesn't have to. He wrote a bunch of posts about it and said engine couldn't do it. Didn't say performance was the reason, but then again he's not an engineer but creative director and lead writer - ergo, an artist (and now retired and as he said himself, not giving a f. anymore).

Yes obviously. And all of that is a plus for DLSS 5... how? So, if the game engine was cut down for performance reasons and dlss5 cuts down performance by half (as the OP said himself), then what is the difference between that and just giving users a quality slider in the engine? It's not technology that didn't exist back then (it did!), it's a choice or lazy development. Artists always want more, that doesn't mean engineers are good enough to deliver. They were making that game for 7 years, there's been time to tweak, optimise, add more things - they chose not to.

Again, read his posts, he says it's all already in the game, the only thing missing is proper lighting. That's exactly what he underlined allows DLSS5 to look very good in that game, as it had all the details available there and just applied proper lighting and that's the result. Gamers can't see those details only because of engine limitations.

Yes, then you apply something magical - optimization! As in, compressing things, cutting down on less relevant things and still coming out with 90%+ of artistic intent but in a package that works well on target hardware. Plenty of games did that, especially with lighting details he underlines their engine couldn't do. It's all doable, it just takes skilled engine developers which these days seem to be near none existing.

Now, just btw, he posted another thing after the post in question, about every single studio using now AI for assets, art, and engine. We already know (from artists and developers) that in many cases publishers and studios are replacing people with AI. Because I work with AI daily (that's what my 5090 is mostly used for) with a lot of creative work and coding too, I know how it works from practice. Especially that I created my own version of models, harness, tuning of the whole setup, my own fork of llama.cpp (software used to run AI models on Windows) etc. What he wrote is true, but people read it wrong - he wrote especially the most talented people use AI. In my own experience only really talented and skilled artists and engineers can use AI properly and it actually helps them to save time without twisting their vision and intent. Most common people have no clue how to use AI properly and what comes out is a total slop which usually just slows them down instead of speeding up and prevents learning. Point being, big publishers chasing cost cutting get rid of skilled artists and many skilled developers left too. Replaced by juniors or mids with AI which will result in even worse games coming out (performance and quality) - DLSS 5 will be used by those as a crutch, not optional but required for any good look. That's the future I sadly see in AAA now and it's not a good one.

Raster will always have limitation, no matter how much you "optimize". Or you could "optimize" to the point your development freedom becomes too stiff and that artistic vision gets left aside.
So you end up doing other stuff like PT (as it should) or this DLSS 5 take.

 

[Tinek]

Raster will always have limitation, no matter how much you "optimize". Or you could "optimize" to the point your development freedom becomes too stiff and that artistic vision gets left aside.
So you end up doing other stuff like PT (as it should) or this DLSS 5 take.

I don't know where you read anything in my post that contains "raster" in it? But my answer to the PT and DLSS 5 - according to NVIDIA it's not one or the other, it's both at once That's even bigger push for "just buy new 5k+ GBP card! And then another one and another as we release new ones! The more you buy the more you save!". Ergo, most of all, it's a big marketing push to brainwash people into "I MUST!" mode. That aside, you should know by now I absolutely do NOT agree with the "PT is required" statement and will always call it for what it really is - cost-cutting lazy development, period. Games aren't movies, games are to have GAMEPLAY first, then graphics to dress it up. It can be whatever, it can be stickmen fighting (that exists!) etc. As long as people want to play it and buy it. Super realistic games are really just a tiny subset of all games and yet people get their panties in the twist about it as if its the only thing that exist.

 

[keyser van someone]

This ones doing the rounds on YT, its leaked version so not sure this is what we'll get when it's out out. Reminds me of Cyberpunk PT with remux mods. We're less fooled by faces and natural things, but then again Rockstar weren't aiming for realism when they made GTA4 in 2008, but we're slapping a realism filter on it now.

 

[Calin Banc]

I don't know where you read anything in my post that contains "raster" in it? But to answer to the PT and DLSS 5 - according to NVIDIA it's not one or the other, it's both at once That's even bigger push for "just buy new 5k+ GBP card! And then another one and another as we release new ones! The more you buy the more you save!". Ergo, most of all, it's a big marketing push to brainwash people into "I MUST!" mode. That aside, you should know by now I absolutely do NOT agree with the "PT is required" statement and will always call it for what it really is - cost-cutting lazy development, period. Games aren't movies, games are to have GAMEPLAY first, then graphics to dress it up. It can be whatever, it can be stickmen fighting (that exists!) etc. As long as people want to play it and buy it. Super realistic games are really just a tiny subset of all games and yet people get their panties in the twist about it as if its the only thing that exist.

Hope is clear now since you've gave yourself the answer!

Yes, graphics don't matter, that's why all the people only play on 1080p, fsr ultra performance (since amd has the cheapest cards) at... don't know, is 60fps good for gameplay? Or should we say 30fps, since GTAVI is targeting that.
BTW, bad, bad, bad R*, why did they bother to make those graphics... they should have kept it to Vice City/gta 3 levels. you don't need more! and perhaps target 1000fps for the ultimate experience!

@TNA see mate, told you 4k oled is not all that great, graphics/visuals don't matter!

 

[Grim5]

graphics don't matter, imma just go play a command line game in dos

 

[Kelt]

This ones doing the rounds on YT, its leaked version so not sure this is what we'll get when it's out out. Reminds me of Cyberpunk PT with remux mods. We're less fooled by faces and natural things, but then again Rockstar weren't aiming for realism when they made GTA4 in 2008, but we're slapping a realism filter on it now.

That's damned impressive.

 

[Tinek]

We're less fooled by faces and natural things, but then again Rockstar weren't aiming for realism when they made GTA4 in 2008, but we're slapping a realism filter on it now.

And that's the thing, isn't it? Very loud minority, calling everyone who do not agree "psychopaths" (as witnessed earlier), got super rabid about something that's a personal choice filter, which they might like (no matter FPS cost) but clearly plenty of people do not. Some for looks, but logically speaking (all the emotions aside), it's mostly because majority do not have xx80 or xx90 class GPUs and this whole thing is just one more slap in the face of gamers, considering pricing and how the whole PC gaming market tanked. Neural rendering was supposed to increase performance of things, not tank it, especially when NVIDIA advises it's best to use it with PT (which it was supposed to replace, to INCREASE performance!). It's literally being tone-deaf on a corporate-level and still claiming everyone who doesn't like it is a psychopath etc. Just wow...

All that aside, it's a very interesting tech, I might take some time eventually and dismantle it into pieces to see what exactly they did inside with it. So far all I know it's a few small FP8 quantized models - why not nvfp4 is an interesting question, but that could come too.

 

[Tinek]

graphics don't matter, imma just go play a command line game in dos

There are quite a few still fun to play games from the DOS time. Personally, I like to come back to Doom now and then and just rip and tear, especially with so many mods out there (maps, weapons, etc.). What's wrong with that? Unlike a lot of modern stuff, it's actually been hand-optimised to nearly perfection by a talented engineer. Wish more modern games could do such things, but too expensive apparently.

 

[megalomanic]

dlss 5 + raster... not always working )

https://twitter.com/x/status/2094139781449953724

I'm guessing this is with the NR intensity turned down a chunk, here's what I get in the same spot on default and 50% color transfer.

What a difference PT makes though.

 

[mid_gen]

Raster will always have limitation, no matter how much you "optimize". Or you could "optimize" to the point your development freedom becomes too stiff and that artistic vision gets left aside.
So you end up doing other stuff like PT (as it should) or this DLSS 5 take.

Game dev is a constant struggle to improve the smoke and mirrors to achieve the desired visual experience.

Continuing to brute force rendering with more and more ‘accurate’ simulation models is daft when machine learning models can achieve the same results with less horsepower.

Yes DLSS5 needs a lot of grunt, but the visual fidelity far exceeds what I guess we have to call programmatic or deterministic rendering.

As a solo dev it’s very interesting to me what I might be able to achieve visually with a limited budget.

 

[keyser van someone]

These cloudy scenes in GTA4 and Cyberpunk PT always seem to make them look really good I think its a trick of the lighting or something, but yeah impressive tech, if you don't like it you can disable it etc, pick a dlss version.

The main problem is the GPU raster gains are slowing gen on gen, thats a hard problem, not an easy one, if it were easy AMD or Intel would counter and make a faster GPU, so they are bringing in more features/tools like ray/path tracing, dlss etc and yes it sucks, we want more raster before anything else, raw compute. But it's shifting, and now AI etc. But then again what makes a game fun, for me I'd rather have a RDR2/GTA world over Cyberpunk, sell the world and gameplay first then make it look pretty second.

I did think there were some Cyberpunk nods in the GTA6 trailer, the detailed close up of the guy on the phone, we see his face, teeth, hair, eyes, I was impressed. So even if a game might not manage to pull off the sandbox gameplay they sure did a great job at raising the high fidelity bar with Cyberpunk.

 

[BKUK]

This is going to destroy amd if they havent got something lined up that their next line of cards can handle. The gap was already big in terms of path tracing capability. For this just to be a forced .dll from one game without developer input, i think it looks amazing. The frame rate to be halved is bad, but lets see how it develops.

 

[Devious]

Some games do need the color settings adjusted from what I've found - on default settings RE9 looks better in some places than others, but you can reduce color transfer strength etc to make it closer to the original colors of the game.

I've found the opposite re Grace's face, the change is too drastic imo depending on your settings:


With HDR over this too I like it a lot. What I find I'm mostly missing vs PT is light being cast on the scene from different sources, but after playing a few parts I'm preferring NR over PT - the zombies really are that little bit more scary too and more... 'alive'.

I'll have to check out Control sometime, curious about that one.

Grace looks nothing like that for me. She looks almost unchanged. It must not be working right for me in RE9.

 

[opethdisciple]

This is going to destroy amd if they havent got something lined up that their next line of cards can handle. The gap was already big in terms of path tracing capability. For this just to be a forced .dll from one game without developer input, i think it looks amazing. The frame rate to be halved is bad, but lets see how it develops.

I bet the 6000 series has some sort of new hardware level features that can accelerate this better than current gen hardware.