Does something need to be done about dogs?

[ttaskmaster]

I wonder how many incidents that were put down to mechanical issues were due to lack of servicing, putting the driver/owner at fault for those too.

I would certainly have included those in the count. After all, when a car is found driving round without an MOT, that's why the drivers are punished instead of the cars.....!!

Doesn't matter, some animals shouldn't be owned. I don't think you should be able to keep a pet Puma at home and I don't think XL Bullys should be allowed either.
Why do XL Bullys need to exist even?

That's just your opinion, and it doesn't matter. They exist regardless and they are currently legal, as are many other animals that can be owned.
I've seen a good number of XL Bullys now, and not one has been anything but fabulously well behaved, even at a rallys full of rowdy drunken bikers and fetes full of kids screaming about the place.

Yes, it's a sentence. I'm not sure why you're confused by that as it was quite clear which part of it I addressed, I even quoted just that snippet of the sentence later on!

I'm not the confused one.
The whole thing was in direct response to a comment specifically about good/bad owners. Your response ignores that context and turns it back to being all about your own opinions. It's as if you didn't actually read what you quoted or follow the thread of it.

 

[dowie]

I've seen a good number of XL Bullys now, and not one has been anything but fabulously well behaved, even at a rallys full of rowdy drunken bikers and fetes full of kids screaming about the place.

That's irrelevant, you could say the same thing about some pet Puma used to humans, or to use your car analogy some dangerous car known to spontaneously combust might have been totally fine when you've been picked up by an Uber driver who used it.

If you're making statements like that you don't seem to understand the issue here at all, we're talking about tail risk, these things killing or seriously injuring people.

The whole thing was in direct response to a comment specifically about good/bad owners.

Yes, I know and it's flawed for the reasons pointed out already. It's a completely blinkered position to treat this problem as monocausal, relating to the owners and to ignore the obvious re: differences in breeds and the dangers inherent to fighting dogs.

 

[ttaskmaster]

If you're making statements like that you don't seem to understand the issue here at all, we're talking about tail risk, these things killing or seriously injuring people.

Tail risk? You're worrying about your portfolio, at a time like this?
Statements like that deliberately mirror your own irrelevant opinions.

Yes, I know and it's flawed for the reasons pointed out already. It's a completely blinkered position to treat this problem as monocausal, relating to the owners and to ignore the obvious re: differences in breeds and the dangers inherent to fighting dogs.

"Monocausal, monocausal, monocausal"... monotonous, more like, and still utterly irrelevant as that was NOT the point being discussed.
Try addressing what's actually been said, rather than just bleating the same old bull ****.

 

[dowie]

Tail risk? You're worrying about your portfolio, at a time like this?
Statements like that deliberately mirror your own irrelevant opinions.

And this is perhaps why you're continually unable to grasp the issue, you've thrown in some flawed analogy where you have the same issues and then you've tried some anecdotes about your personal observations re: a few encounters with XL Bullys out and about... you're talking about opinions well one that seeks to dismiss the data and revert to personal anecdote is very much an irrelevant one!

Same thing with the Semenya thread where you came to some bizarre conclusion re: what her performance should be which contained a big whopping schoolboy error you still didn't seem to understand after it was clearly pointed out to you.

 

[dowie]

And another one:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1696923008487583766

‘American Bully’ dogs shot dead by police after nine-year-old child mauled

Four people were taken to hospital for injuries after the Tyneside attack

www.gbnews.com

Two ‘American Bully’ dogs were shot dead by the police after they attacked four people in a sleepy village in Tyneside.

A family member of the victims of the attack told GB News that the American Bully dogs mauled a 9-year-old boy and his father before turning their violent attention to their two owners.

Locals aware of the incident said that the dogs belonged to the controversial American Bully XL breed, but GB News understands that there has been no official confirmation.

Not the dog of peace again...

 

[ttaskmaster]

And this is perhaps why you're continually unable to grasp the issue, you've thrown in some flawed analogy where you have the same issues and then you've tried some anecdotes about your personal observations re: a few encounters with XL Bullys out and about... you're talking about opinions well one that seeks to dismiss the data and revert to personal anecdote is very much an irrelevant one!

I grasp the issue just fine. I merely disagree with your opinions and your assertions.
You, on the other hand, are clearly are incapable of recognising when speech is used for effect, illustration, explanation, clarification, analogy or any other such vehicle, so perhaps I should just point out that you're up your own arse and leave it at that.

And yes, the opinion based on anecdotes was deliberately irrelevant, in direct response to your own. That was the whole point.

Same thing with the Semenya thread where you came to some bizarre conclusion re: what her performance should be which contained a big whopping schoolboy error you still didn't seem to understand after it was clearly pointed out to you.

Yes, yes, you win, I concede every point, blah blah blah... we've been over that.
But all that bull **** aside, my conclusions were taken from various different scientists' analyses of the situation.
You, on the other hand, are just like a pit bull - You get your teeth into one tiny detail, then you maul the ever living **** out of it, dragging it around for all it's worth, while totally ignoring everything else around it.

 

[dowie]

You get your teeth into one tiny detail, then you maul the ever living **** out of it, dragging it around for all it's worth, while totally ignoring everything else around it.

The "tiny detail" in this case being the obvious flaw in your whole position where you seek to try to blame everything on the owners and ignore that differences in breeds have an impact here too.

 

[ttaskmaster]

The "tiny detail" in this case being the obvious flaw in your whole position where you seek to try to blame everything on the owners and ignore that differences in breeds have an impact here too.

It's already been asserted by several studies linked earlier in the thread that breed has very little impact on behaviour.
Plenty of other studies, also linked, point out that the vast majority of incidents were predictable and preventable, which is why owners are almost always held to account by the law.

There is no flaw.

 

[dowie]

It's already been asserted by several studies linked earlier in the thread that breed has very little impact on behaviour.

OK, but the issue here is deaths and injuries... I don't care if ackchually a Chihuahua behaves more aggressively.

Back in reality though behaviors clearly do differ between breeds, you're not going to buy a labradoodle if you're a sheep farmer as they're totally bonkers, you'll want the usual border collie which has a herding instinct and is smart and known to be suitable to be trained in that role.

Also:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.0716

Interestingly, the traits with the highest among-breed heritability were trainability (h2 = 0.73), stranger-directed aggression (h2 = 0.68), chasing (h2 = 0.62) and attachment and attention-seeking (h2 = 0.56), which is consistent with the hypothesis that these behaviours have been important targets of selection during the formation of modern breeds [3].

 

[dowie]

This presumably relates to the same attack reported a few posts further up... the dogs were already known to be a problem:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1696468429685809223

"Apparently the dogs were in training because they had a malevolent streak and the owner was instructed to keep them inside the gates of the garden but they slipped out. "

The sad thing is there is a good chance the government will eventually ban XL Bullys, at least if their numbers carry on growing as the attacks will inevitably carry on but by the time that more people grasp the obvious, that there is an issue with this breed, there will be way more of them around and it's not like they're all going to be destroyed. Instead, we'll be faced with cracking down on the dealers and trying to stop new ones from being bred + existing ones people are allowed to keep being allowed out if they have a muzzle etc.

 

[ttaskmaster]

OK, but the issue here is deaths and injuries... I don't care if ackchually a Chihuahua behaves more aggressively.

The breed itself matters so little, it might as well not matter. No need to get hung up on it.
The defining factor is the lineage and what specific dogs' ancestors were like.

Back in reality though behaviors clearly do differ between breeds, you're not going to buy a labradoodle if you're a sheep farmer as they're totally bonkers, you'll want the usual border collie which has a herding instinct and is smart and known to be suitable to be trained in that role.

Nope.
You clearly have no clue. Labradoodles aren't a breed anyway, they're a hybrid cross and, with such a wide variance in origins, do not have consistent characteristics. A few have been used as herding dogs, but then so have Boxers.
By contrast, there are numerous rescue centres that specialise in and only take Border Collies, precisely because a high number of them turn out to not have strong enough herding instincts and trainability to succeed as sheepdogs.
Some of the best herding dogs are those that aren't officially recognised breeds at all, such as the Welsh Collie - They're bred purely for their behavioural traits and they don't even have a standard appearance.

Three of our dogs have been absolutely nothing like their breed standard.

Also:
Interestingly, the traits with the highest among-breed heritability were trainability (h2 = 0.73), stranger-directed aggression (h2 = 0.68), chasing (h2 = 0.62) and attachment and attention-seeking (h2 = 0.56), which is consistent with the hypothesis that these behaviours have been important targets of selection during the formation of modern breeds [3].

Yes, heritability - In other words, what their ancestors were like. Again, people cherry-picking traits they want, like I already covered.
Those underlined, ie all of them, are also what makes for a good Police Dog, for example.
What results in so many problem dogs is a sub-set of their trainability, which is how responsive they are to their environment. Most problem dogs of the types being discussed in this thread have been bred for a high environmental malleability, and are put (deliberately and otherwise) in environments that direct them toward aggressive behaviour.

"Apparently the dogs were in training because they had a malevolent streak and the owner was instructed to keep them inside the gates of the garden but they slipped out. "

So the owner ****** up, and you're blaming it on 'the breed'...?
Are XLBs reknowned for their escapology abilities?

 

[sidimmu]

This is just a clown thread, if you are new here, just move on and dont even bother.

The breed itself matters so little, it might as well not matter. No need to get hung up on it.

Absolutely comical view, yeah its quite clear breed matters, even though you say there is no difference between breeds, to then go on to specify the characteristics of herding dogs, is a bit hypocritical.

Three of our dogs have been absolutely nothing like their breed standard.

Because dog does not meet requirements, it is moved to a shelter so it can become a non working dog, dont see the problem with this. Its like getting a useless employee and getting rid of them before end of probation.
On the upside the dog gets a shelter to be looked after and find a new home.
I am pretty sure none of us wanted a break down of herding dogs and that though, point was that certain dogs used for certain jobs, Bully XL are being bred for violence and intimidation, completely sensible and what we need in a civilised 1st world.

So the owner ****** up, and you're blaming it on 'the breed'...?
Are XLBs reknowned for their escapology abilities?

Are you absolutely clueless to previous replies?
The dog maimed 2 children and had to be put down by police. Yes the owner is a clown, no debating that. But the dog is clearly the outlying problem, replace the dog with a number of other breeds, yes it might escape, a majority are not going to injure children and require terminating.

 

[Richie]

This is just a clown thread, if you are new here, just move on and dont even bother.

*looks at top 3 posters in thread*.... Yep, that's all you need to know to realise this

 

[chrcoluk]

I just got perma banned from Reddit for saying these dangerous dog breeds need to be put down...

Turns out Reddit has no problems with gore, pedophiles and other disturbing ****.

But if you say a dangerous dog breeds need dealing with its banning time

from the entire reddit site? wow that is bizarre.

 

[potatolord]

*looks at top 3 posters in thread*.... Yep, that's all you need to know to realise this

How do you see top posters in a thread?

That could be a useful tool.

Unlike some of the tools who post in *select thread name*

 

[dowie]

Yes, heritability - In other words, what their ancestors were like. Again, people cherry-picking traits they want, like I already covered.

That's how the breeds are created FFS!

"in other words what their ancestors were like" - yes, otherwise known as the breed... the thing they're investigating!

So the owner ****** up, and you're blaming it on 'the breed'...?

Again, this is the bit you continually get stuck on:

It's a completely blinkered position to treat this problem as monocausal, relating to the owners and to ignore the obvious re: differences in breeds and the dangers inherent to fighting dogs.

 

[potatolord]

This is a rather harrowing read re: one of these XL Bullys killing a child in 2021:

A Quick Intro

I’ve wanted to start a blog for a while mainly to voice the things that don’t get printed in the paper, shown on TV or that don’t fit into…

medium.com

And this is why we need a ban on these dogs:



It's perfectly legal, currently, for them to be openly advertised for sale on Instagram. That he'd just had one destroyed for killing a child didn't seem to phase the owner/apparent seller of these dogs.

Just awful.

I live two miles from where this happened and was aware of a lot of detail through my previous job and local gossip. As always, reading the experiences of those directly involved brings a different perspective.

While it's only personal observation, the number of bullyxl/ pitbull types seem to be increasing in this area. The profile of owners remains the same- but fully accept my personal bias there!

 

[sidimmu]

How do you see top posters in a thread?

That could be a useful tool.

Unlike some of the tools who post in *select thread name*

top right of page, 3 dots with arrow down, Whos replied

 

[potatolord]

top right of page, 3 dots with arrow down, Whos replied

Thanks- that's very helpful!

 

[Felon]

Partially agree. But if you banned the breed.. Would these undesirables just latch onto a different breed (a big powerful one) and then that breed goes through the same thing?

I don't know.

I wonder whether the BullyXL is such a totally grotesque abomination of a creature it attracts a certain type of owner who probably wouldn't want any other dog. It's been bred purely to frighten people and be used as a status dog.

Take the Turkish Kangal dog for instance:

750PSI bite force, and a wolf killer - would literally obliterate any other dog in almost any setting - but it's a lovely looking animal, it just doesn't have that horrid intimidating look that a BullyXL has - I doubt many chavs on a northern council estate would see a Kangal and find it intimidating (despite it's stats and size), compared to a BXL.

I still think to prevent people from just getting random massive dogs and causing problems, we need some basic controls,

• Mandatory licensing and insurance.
• Breed controls (crack down on illegal breeding, hard).
• Outlaw breeding the BXL (existing dogs live, but no more breeding)

So?
You can't make everyone a good driver, even with laws, licencing, training and monitoring, which is why we see a couple thousand road deaths every year... but it's still down to the driver.

In the UK we have some of the highest driving standards in the world (top 10), passing your test is REALLY ******* hard, and the standards for vehicle safety are very high indeed, second I believe only to Sweden and possibly Germany.

As a result, UK roads are some of the safest in the world with close to the lowest number of fatalities, per 100k miles driven.