Does something need to be done about dogs?

I always wondered whether for people who own larger dogs, say anything over 45KG (100Lb) there needs to be a mandatory dog safety and behaviour course which you MUST pay for and attend, a bit like a speed awareness course - where it's about common sense and behaviour, what to do if your dog acts up, how to recognise problem situations and how to resolve them.
After watching that American Bulldog drag around a woman who weighed less than it did, I couldn't agree more. It's insane that she even takes it out by herself. She had ZERO control and didn't know what she was doing. My 12kg Jack Cross is strong enough to be a problem for some people if he wants to be!
 
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As part of it, if it ever happened, I'd like to see problem dogs taken from their owners and homed until they die from natural causes by people who aren't irresponsible. The same goes for dogs that have problem owners, take the dogs off them. But that would take funding that would never be given. Responsible owners should keep their dogs under license but have them neutered.

Yeah with this it's just too hard to enforce.
As the previous poster said, police barely enforce serious obvious crimes. Let alone checking if dogs are licenced
 
After watching that American Bulldog drag around a woman who weighed less than it did, I couldn't agree more. It's insane that she even takes it out by herself. She had ZERO control and didn't know what she was doing.
Saw a video other day of maybe the same.
A couple with a small dog were holding their dog in the air while this beast dog kept jumping for it while the owner was dragged around the floor.

I'd have kicked that dog in face and done anything could to protect my boy as he'd be too big to keep Out of the way. Thought of it is horrifying
 
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This is one of the rare cases I agree with a ban on that breed. I understand its a slippery slope.

Maybe there should be a ban review if x number of serious accidents a year is breached.
Ie.. Right now.. Bully xl are over this line.. So a review into thier banning should be enforced.
No idea how to police it either. And I certainly wouldn't want to take dogs away from thier owners. That would be horrible.

Well the default is to do what we do with the already banned breeds like pitbulls, some might be deemed individually to be dangerous and are destroyed, others must only be walked on a lead and with a muzzle in public and are not allowed to be abandoned, sold or bred. The owner should neuter them and is either stuck with them, only walking them in public under those tighter constraints and it's illegal for anyone to get new ones.

In reality, a few pit bulls still appear and owners might claim they were unaware then when found out they need to comply with the rules, conversely with Bully XL dogs the local chavs can just openly advertise them on social media and the authorities can do nothing about any breeding operations.
 
Saw a video other day of maybe the same.
A couple with a small dog were holding their dog in the air while this beast dog kept jumping for it while the owner was dragged around the floor.

I'd have kicked that dog in face and done anything could to protect my boy as he'd be too big to keep Out of the way. Thought of it is horrifying
Fortunately I wasn't by myself when I had that with the small lady. The person with me walked off with my dog and I wrapped the bulldogs lead around a railing and left because it was getting more and more wound up. Kicking it in the face is pointless, it'll just make it worse unless you're trying to kill it. No idea how she got home. I did report it to the police though, just so they had a record of it if anything else worse happened in the future. I didn't expect anything to be done at the time.

Even by myself though, I'm fortunate that my dog is small enough that I can pick him up with one arm, even if he's big enough for it to be awkward. I don't think I'll ever get a much bigger breed than a Jack. Personality in spades, cost less to feed, live longer, and I can pick them up if there is a problem (though they're too fighty for their own good even if well trained. They fight back.)
 
Fortunately I wasn't by myself when I had that with the small lady. The person with me walked off with my dog and I wrapped the bulldogs lead around a railing and left because it was getting more and more wound up. Kicking it in the face is pointless, it'll just make it worse unless you're trying to kill it. No idea how she got home. I did report it to the police though, just so they had a record of it if anything else worse happened in the future. I didn't expect anything to be done at the time.

Even by myself though, I'm fortunate that my dog is small enough that I can pick him up with one arm, even if he's big enough for it to be awkward. I don't think I'll ever get a much bigger breed than a Jack. Personality in spades, cost less to feed, live longer, and I can pick them up if there is a problem (though they're too fighty for their own good even if well trained. They fight back.)

Koda is far to big (22kg)to pick up. He's such a passive pup he'd probably be psychologically wrecked if he was in a full on encounter with an aggressive dog.

No idea how I'd react in real life of something like that happened. Not sure I could without being in the moment.

Never been a fan on really little dogs.
 
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Well the default is to do what we do with the already banned breeds like pitbulls, some might be deemed individually to be dangerous and are destroyed, others must only be walked on a lead and with a muzzle in public and are not allowed to be abandoned, sold or bred. The owner should neuter them and is either stuck with them, only walking them in public under those tighter constraints and it's illegal for anyone to get new ones.

In reality, a few pit bulls still appear and owners might claim they were unaware then when found out they need to comply with the rules, conversely with Bully XL dogs the local chavs can just openly advertise them on social media and the authorities can do nothing about any breeding operations.

I think it works with Pits, but I sadly I think it is because they are no longer popular status dogs, much like Rotties. They just switched to a different dog since it was made more awkward with Pits (which then does mean the banning worked to some extent I guess). The people who do/did have them that I've met obey the rules.
 
I'd have kicked that dog in face and done anything could to protect my boy as he'd be too big to keep Out of the way. Thought of it is horrifying

A small Swiss army knife or leatherman and sometimes useful to have a multitool in the countryside/outdoors anyway (maybe less so in a city park tho). They're legal to carry around if the blade isn't lockable and below a certain length as they're not particularly useful for violent gang members etc.

Most of the stuff online re: knives and dog attacks presumes you're the person being attacked and in that case it might well be a farce, but in the event some pitbull type thing has its jaws tightly clamped around your dog it could be quite useful.

Firstly if the useless owner isn't making an effort to control the dog and stop the attack then pulling out a knife could prompt that to change, likewise, dogs are generally aware of and scared of knives too. Alternatively, if it's still not letting go (and especially if it's attacking another person/child rather than a dog) you could actually use the knife on its eyes or throat.
 
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Koda is far to big (22kg)to pick up. He's such a passive pup he'd probably be psychologically wrecked if he was in a full on encounter with an aggressive dog.

No idea how I'd react in real life of something like that happened. Not sure I could without being in the moment.

Never been a fan on really little dogs.

12kg isn't little though really. I grew up with Weimaraners and then other bigger dogs and thought I wouldn't want anything smaller. But then I got my current dog at a Rescue and his energy levels and personality more than make up for the lack of size. He's 12 now and showing zero signs of slowing down.
 
Koda is far to big (22kg)to pick up. He's such a passive pup he'd probably be psychologically wrecked if he was in a full on encounter with an aggressive dog.

My friend has a Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff) when he was a pup (4 months old) they were socialising him in the park, and a staffordshire bull terrier got off the lead, came over and massacred the pup, made a real mess of him - £4000 vet bill.

The problem now, is he's now almost fully grown (2 years) and he's an absolute nervous wreck, he goes crazy if a french bulldog gets within 50yds of him - it's very upsetting. My friend has spent £thousands on specialist dog trainers, shock collars (vibration not electric) all sorts - and it's just been a bit of a nightmare.

At 2 years old now - the dog is likely never going to grow out of that behaviour, which is a shame as he's georgeous - he just melts down if other dogs go anywhere near him..
 
Dog of peace strikes again, this time it seems to have attacked it's owner:

Police received a report that a woman had been bitten by a dog on Frodsham Drive, Blackbrook, last Friday afternoon, August 25.

A woman was taken to hospital with serious injuries to her arm and body.

She is now recovering at home, police say.

Meanwhile, the dog, believed to be an XL bully, was later destroyed, police have confirmed.

In b4 ackchually the breeds don't matter, it's only the owners...
 
Absolutely comical view, yeah its quite clear breed matters, even though you say there is no difference between breeds, to then go on to specify the characteristics of herding dogs, is a bit hypocritical.
Breed is just what they're called, as in Labrador, GSD, etc.
Characteristics are what was, or was not, bred into an individual dog's lineage. This is why you get dogs belonging to a certain breed, yet do not exhibit the characteristiocs typical of that breed.

Because dog does not meet requirements, it is moved to a shelter so it can become a non working dog, dont see the problem with this.
The point is that many dogs do not conform to their breed standards, for either appearance or behaviour. Enough of each that there are rescue centres who deal in just that one breed, be they Border Collies, GSDs, Schnauzers, and so on.

The dog maimed 2 children and had to be put down by police. Yes the owner is a clown, no debating that. But the dog is clearly the outlying problem
The dog wouldn't be a problem if the owner did their job in the first place.

"in other words what their ancestors were like" - yes, otherwise known as the breed... the thing they're investigating!
Once again, you are wrong.
The breed is just a standard, covering many different dogs from many different lineages, as well as those outside of the pedigree.
The actual ancestry is specific to a particular dog's lineage, same as with humans. The family trees for XLBs tend to look more like stumps because they're still so new and there hasn't been much (documented) diversity over that long a time.

WHY NOT BOTH?
Two reasons:
1/. Because breed itself has a minimal influence on behaviour compared to environmental malleability and the actual environment in which the dog is raised. In other words, Nurture drastically outweighs Nature.
2/. Because almost all of the dangers associated with 'problem' dogs can be successfully managed by an intelligent, responsible owner.... and because almost all of the incidents that occur result ultimately from owners who failed in their duties.

As so many studies, specialists and professionals keep insisting - Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

In the UK we have some of the highest driving standards in the world (top 10), passing your test is REALLY ******* hard, and the standards for vehicle safety are very high indeed, second I believe only to Sweden and possibly Germany. As a result, UK roads are some of the safest in the world with close to the lowest number of fatalities, per 100k miles driven.
Yup, and that's fine - Some people won't ever pass their tests, and that's also fine.
The problem is with those who either pass their tests and then do whatever they like or, in some cases, just drive without a licence.
The point is, it's on them and in such a free society we can't make them good drivers any more than we can make people good dog owners... but we also don't go round crushing specific makes/models of cars just because the types of people who drive them badly have had an accident.

What an utterly depressing thought. Peoples inate desire to care and raise young, pacified by a canine substitute.
Not at all - I found canines far more rewarding than raising children. Far cheaper, far easier, far more socially welcomed, far less competitive, subjected to far less criticism... the benefits were tremendous.
By contrast, the only mental health issues actually stemmed from the children, and it was the dogs that kept the issues from becoming a problem.

I'd like to see problem dogs taken from their owners and homed until they die from natural causes by people who aren't irresponsible. The same goes for dogs that have problem owners, take the dogs off them. But that would take funding that would never be given.
The first bit is happening already and a number of shelters have just such a section for dogs like that. The second bit also does happen and the likes of the RSPCA do their best but, as you say, funding is the issue and in both cases there are many more dogs than spaces.

A small Swiss army knife or leatherman and sometimes useful to have a multitool in the countryside/outdoors anyway (maybe less so in a city park tho). They're legal to carry around if the blade isn't lockable and below a certain length as they're not particularly useful for violent gang members etc.
:rolleyes:
It's somewhat more complicated than that.
A non-locking, folding blade under 3" (7.62cm) is legal to carry without any reason. However, carrying anything like that with the intent of using it to cause harm or injury, or to use it in a threatening manner, is a crime under the Offensive Weapons Act 2019.

likewise, dogs are generally aware of and scared of knives too.
What utter bull ****!!!!!
Where the **** did you hear that??!!

In b4 ackchually the breeds don't matter, it's only the owners...
In b4 any actual context of the circumstances, too, it seems.
99% sure the incident will be down to human failings, though....
 
Once again, you are wrong.
The breed is just a standard, covering many different dogs from many different lineages, as well as those outside of the pedigree.

The breed is literally what they were studying and it was shown that aggression to strangers had one of the strongest correlations, so no I'm not wrong there you're just misunderstanding the information you've been given as per usual. They're not looking at the dog's parents, you've gone off on some tangent when you've seen heritability mentioned but they were literally looking at the breed! The very thing you're in denial of.

2/. Because almost all of the dangers associated with 'problem' dogs can be successfully managed by an intelligent, responsible owner.... and because almost all of the incidents that occur result ultimately from owners who failed in their duties.

So you admit that some breeds are more dangerous than others?

Do you not see the issue here - this notion that if only the owners were responsible good people is farcical, I doubt any responsible owner would want an XL Bully in the first place, it's a totally new breed developed to be intimidating and aggressive from fighting dogs! It's essentially a massive pitbull, a breed we already banned.

It's clearly better to ban them in the first place than to have them carry on causing attacks and retrospectively determining that some owner is irresponsible only after the dog has seriously injured or killed someone.

Your old suggestion involved some magical handwaving re: psychology to persuade people not to own them or something, it's far more effective to just ban them, they don't need to exist and they didn't exist until relatively recently.
 
The family trees for XLBs tend to look more like stumps because they're still so new and there hasn't been much (documented) diversity over that long a time.

If they're so new, and we're having this many problems with them, to the point where the damn insurance company won't even give you a quote to provide basic insurance and liability for the animal - wouldn't the simplest solution just be to outlaw them? If they're this new - and it's all gone south so quickly...?

It's not like we'd be depriving the world of all dogs, still 220 different breeds to choose from, big small, weak powerful - whatever..

Surely it's just basic common sense? :confused:
 
Dog of peace strikes again, this time it seems to have attacked it's owner:



In b4 ackchually the breeds don't matter, it's only the owners...

Careful! You keep posting things like this and the whingers will appear.
Interesting that the media are definitely reporting on more of the attacks.
 
Careful! You keep posting things like this and the whingers will appear.
Interesting that the media are definitely reporting on more of the attacks.

After that incident, the twitter user Fleur posted about some papers looked to be trying to get in contact. I think the Mirror looks like it's running a bit of a campaign.
 
The breed is literally what they were studying and it was shown that aggression to strangers had one of the strongest correlations, so no I'm not wrong there you're just misunderstanding the information you've been given as per usual. They're not looking at the dog's parents, you've gone off on some tangent when you've seen heritability mentioned but they were literally looking at the breed! The very thing you're in denial of.
"They're not looking at the dog's parents?"
What the **** do you think 'heritability' means, then??!!

Every trait they mention will vary in intensity between different dogs, regardless of specific breed, hence the use of the phrase "highest among-breed heritability", which just examines the likelihood of a dog inheriting those traits if it's parents or other members of its lineage have it. It doesn't mean that all dogs within that breed will have it, or have it as intensely, and is why heritability still matters just as much with dogs that do not conform to breed standards.
At best, you'll get a breed average, but that's not even much of an indicator.


So you admit that some breeds are more dangerous than others?
What the **** gave you that idea?
Are you just making **** up, now?

Do you not see the issue here - this notion that if only the owners were responsible good people is farcical, I doubt any responsible owner would want an XL Bully in the first place, it's a totally new breed developed to be intimidating and aggressive from fighting dogs! It's essentially a massive pitbull, a breed we already banned.
Firstly, yes if the owners did their ******* jobs, there would be almost no problems whatsoever. That is what all those studies mean by 'predictable and preventable'.
The fact that they don't is the cause of almost every incident.

Secondly, yes new breed, intimidating and aggressive, bred from fighting dogs to get around the banned dogs law, and no a responsible owner/breeder would not have done such a thing in the first place.
But they're here.
As already highlighted many times, legislation and banning didn't work for the other dogs and it won't work here.
The change has to happen organically. People must get on board with not wanting them around - You can either use the societal change methods, or just wait until so many kids have died that the public react en-masse to anyone who owns an XLB...

If they're so new, and we're having this many problems with them, to the point where the damn insurance company won't even give you a quote to provide basic insurance and liability for the animal - wouldn't the simplest solution just be to outlaw them? If they're this new - and it's all gone south so quickly...?
People said that about GSDs and Rottweilers back when they were the big scary threats of their respective days.
Instead, we now have a lot of responsible breeding going on, from lineages that exhibit far more desirable traits. We're even seeing people refusing slope-backed GSDs in favour of those with more natural spines. Hopefully other deformed breeds like Pugs will see similar recovery.

The point being that banning may seem like a simple solution, but it's not necessarily the right one and it hasn't completely solved the issue in the past... That's how we ended up with XLBs in the first place.
Controlled and responsible selective breeding has instead led to considerable improvement for other breed, so why not consider it here? After all, that's what led to Staffies becoming the actual Dogs of Peace (rather than just some mindless internet bleat) back when they were bred for things like child-guarding.
 
"They're not looking at the dog's parents?"
What the **** do you think 'heritability' means, then??!!

Every trait they mention will vary in intensity between different dogs, regardless of specific breed, hence the use of the phrase "highest among-breed heritability", which just examines the likelihood of a dog inheriting those traits if it's parents or other members of its lineage have it. It doesn't mean that all dogs within that breed will have it, or have it as intensely, and is why heritability still matters just as much with dogs that do not conform to breed standards.

Yes, I'm aware of that thanks which is why people use things like error bars... Heritability refers to how well differences in genes (dogs from different breeds are genetically different) will account for differences in traits (in this case behavioral traits). It doens't mean every individual dog of a particular berrd will be identical, you do seem to have an issue when it comes to stats, uncertainty.

They've been quite specific re: one of the traits with the highest correlation being aggressiveness towards outsiders.

Let's go back to this one though:

2/. Because almost all of the dangers associated with 'problem' dogs can be successfully managed by an intelligent, responsible owner.... and because almost all of the incidents that occur result ultimately from owners who failed in their duties.

As so many studies, specialists and professionals keep insisting - Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

This guy must be a dumbass, it was 100% his own fault:


Was it the baby's fault for crying perhaps?


Good-natured dogs... until they weren't and they ripped his son's face off.


So how would he be able to tell that these were "problem dogs"? If you think that the breed tells you nothing about the risk and that it's all about individual dogs... even though we know that's complete BS. You'd still need a crystal ball in some of these cases to know that the apparently well-behaved dogs were going to snap one day.

Of course instead, you could recognise that there's an obvious risk with dogs like pit bulls and XL Bullys (giant pit bulls).
 
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