Does something need to be done about dogs?
- Thread starter Dis86
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Man of Honour
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On the news tonight the Kennel Club said that if you take all the dog attacks over the last 12 months you've got more chance of being bit by a Labrador.
I'm pretty sure that's always been the case.
I'm pretty sure that's always been the case.
That is the case which is something I pointed out much earlier in the thread. One of the main points though is outcome. One breed stands head and shoulders above in serious injuries but it doesn't mean any other attacks should be ignored.
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I'm not really sure where the neck wringing came from
. *Removed the settle down due to being pleasant!*Nice he's quiet though, both breeds can be quite big on the yapping.
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I'm always a bit wary of statistics like that though.
Labs are incredibly common with low incidents and there are very few bully XL with very high incidents.
So statistically it's it's not really a true comparison, or at least a very problematic comparison.
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Soldato
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fair enough I. which case I also apologise if I went to far threatening to harm a dog but again to be clear it was only meant as a slur against the out of control aggressive ones.
I can even tolerate some barking .. dogs bark (sometimes) so long as it's not all the damn time.
I actually grew up with working dogs. massively allergic to them but very fond of them
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I wouldn't be too pessimistic, the pitbull ban worked, this was previously banned under it and it's only the result of a court case a few years ago that allowed them... then strangely enough this large pitbull type has spiked the stats upwards... which were otherwise being kept low in this country vs say America where pit bulls are legal in many areas.
I'd walk past 1000 labradors with my boy
. If one did lash out the owner can probably restrain it. I could restrain it.
I could restrain my boy too if he lashed out.
That bully xl? I'm going to cross the road. Because if it went for me or my boy and it was that close, a fatal attack could be achieved in a moment.
Even in adrenaline fueled rage I couldn't stop that dog.
Too much risk for me with my boy, who I'm responsible for. I don't think I could ever own another dog if that happened. Even the thought of it is horrific
. If one did lash out the owner can probably restrain it. I could restrain it.
I could restrain my boy too if he lashed out.
That bully xl? I'm going to cross the road. Because if it went for me or my boy and it was that close, a fatal attack could be achieved in a moment.
Even in adrenaline fueled rage I couldn't stop that dog.
Too much risk for me with my boy, who I'm responsible for. I don't think I could ever own another dog if that happened. Even the thought of it is horrific
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This perhaps illustrates it well... last 10 fatal attacks in the UK.
Now if it were banned (thus needing to be neutered and muzzled/leashed in public) we'd not necessarily have stopped those that took place within people's homes (unless perhaps neutering may have helped in those) but over time if there are fewer breeders then those decay... but also some of these deaths are from attacks in public, being on a leash and with a muzzle could easily have stopped those deaths.
There was a dog trainer on the news with one opposing the ban but note the 10th of August death; a dog trainer... apparently attacked and killed by the dog he was walking after falling over with a seizure. If it was wearing a muzzle then that may have been prevented.
Now if it were banned (thus needing to be neutered and muzzled/leashed in public) we'd not necessarily have stopped those that took place within people's homes (unless perhaps neutering may have helped in those) but over time if there are fewer breeders then those decay... but also some of these deaths are from attacks in public, being on a leash and with a muzzle could easily have stopped those deaths.
There was a dog trainer on the news with one opposing the ban but note the 10th of August death; a dog trainer... apparently attacked and killed by the dog he was walking after falling over with a seizure. If it was wearing a muzzle then that may have been prevented.
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Yeah I'm just skeptical regarding the enforcement ability, but do agree they have to go.
Out of curiosity - I can't find anything anywhere on the dogs of the "pitbul subtype" (which would include the American bully) being previously banned, then unbanned. If you look at the dangerous dogs act 1991, it's been amended a few times, but it's always been very specific in the wording: "Pitbull terrier" it doesn't mention subtypes or any other related dog.
I'm just curious to know whether it was the unbanning of them, or perhaps social media popularity which has caused the spike in popularity.
And yeah - if they were banned, it's easy to argue that the deaths from the last couple of years would have likely been preventable.
It's not a change in legislation but rather a court case AFAIK, the legal academic guy who has appeared on the news campaigning for them to be banned mentioned it.
AFAIK they were banned as a Pitbull type but that was challenged in court and they're now not considered to be pit bulls (even though they basically are giant pit bulls).
However in order to challenge that they've got to give a breed description*, so the anti-ban people can't really have it both ways, if you can describe the breed in court and distinguish it from pit bulls then you can also describe it for the purpose of banning it.
(*note this is in ref to a physical description ttaskmaster, before you come in with your soft, gentle dog breed standard for behaviour stuff)
Ok yeah that makes sense, I saw the twitter post regarding to litigation that took place in 2010.
I actually managed to find this example (2010-2013), which I think is similar, this was a Pitbull and Staffie cross - so not legally 100% pitbull - and would presumably now be legal. At the time the judge agreed with the prosecution that the dog was of "Pitbull type" so not 100% Pitbull, but enough to be deemed dangerous and was given a suspended destruction order.
Illegal Merseyside Pitbull spared in dangerous dog trial
A MERSEYSIDE animal charity has escaped punishment after rehoming an illegal Pitbull type dog with an elderly couple.
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
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They're manipulative the figures there, according to the news earlier 60% of the vicious attacks over the last 12 months were by XL Bullys, I think the Kennel Club are also including "attacks" that didn't cause damage or weren't unprovoked?
This represents something of a problem tackling the issue though, as most dog groups simply don't want to admit that some breeds are predisposed to aggressive behaviour and it's often the ones most capable of carrying it out.
Could we test this hypothesis on James Corden?
Re this, some more info in this article too:
Why American Bully XL dogs have exploded in popularity
The arguments used to defend this dangerous breed are often misleading
inews.co.uk
Pretty decent article and makes a clear case for why it should be banned. These are simply bred from fighting dogs, whatever people try to say about some idealised breed standard doesn't apply here, they're basically extra large pit bulls purchased because regular pit bulls are illegal and of course, as soon as these things started becoming more popular then dog attacks and deaths increased.
We have a lower rate of dog deaths than the US and that can mostly be explained by the fact pit bulls are legal there (and cause a huge portion of the deaths) but are illegal here... until this recent loophole re: a large totally not a pitbull XL Bully started being available.
Re this, some more info in this article too:
Why American Bully XL dogs have exploded in popularity
The arguments used to defend this dangerous breed are often misleading
Pretty decent article and makes a clear case for why it should be banned. These are simply bred from fighting dogs, whatever people try to say about some idealised breed standard doesn't apply here, they're basically extra large pit bulls purchased because regular pit bulls are illegal and of course, as soon as these things started becoming more popular then dog attacks and deaths increased.
We have a lower rate of dog deaths than the US and that can mostly be explained by the fact pit bulls are legal there (and cause a huge portion of the deaths) but are illegal here... until this recent loophole re: a large totally not a pitbull XL Bully started being available.
Yeah, it feels like the legal system has dropped the ball a little... In the case I linked in Mersyside (which seems to have happened before the cases you linked), the judge basically said that if the prosecution could prove that the dog in question was more of a "pitbull-type" dog, then the prosecution would win the argument. On the flipside - if the defence could successfully argue that the dog was more "mongrel-type" then the defence would win. The prosecution won the argument based on expert advice from a dog handler and Defra inspector (I think)
Now it seems that the dog is only illegal if it's 100% Pitbull terrier, another dog with 50% Pitbull genes is deemed not a Pitbull, ergo: is totally legal to own and breed, so it feels like the public have been let down by poor decision making and the legal system which has made a mistake, that loophole is now being exploited by every blinged up hoodrat in the North West.
In the final analysis the resulting mongrel (BullyXL) is practically the same or perhaps worse than the original Pitbull terrier in terms of a risk to the public, because it's fully legal, contains lots of fighting dog DNA and it's like 3-4 times heavier.
Soldato
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Exactly, I was "bitten" by a lab last week, didn't hurt because hes a big softy, he has also bitten a girl that came round the corner on her bike and scared him, again no injuries despite "biting" her.
The owners do muzzle him now when in busy areas just in case but its more for his saftey than other peoples.
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