Does something need to be done about dogs?

[mattyfez]

Let's be honest here, it's chavs with no knowledge or care for aggressive types of dogs.

They can't even look after themselves nevermind dogs or children.

 

[Bear]

Let's be honest here, it's chavs with no knowledge or care for aggressive types of dogs.

They can't even look after themselves nevermind dogs or children.

Lets ban and put down chavs, that would sort a lot of problems out

 

[cheesefest]

I never said it was OK. Just the opposite, actually, hence the response.
Doesn't change the fact that it's the owner's negligence and irresponsibility causing all these problems.


Capacity is not a factor, hence questioning why you brought it up in the first place.


Who are you holding to blame, here? The rescue centre for not handing them everything on a plate, or the owners for not getting up off their arses and doing their research on dog ownership, local training classes, etc?

The lockdowns stopped dog training schools. Never understood why people got a dog for the first time ever during lockdowns when access to things to help them was very limited.
Think some people didn't think outside the box when obtaining a dog.

 

[cheesefest]

Lets ban and put down chavs, that would sort a lot of problems out

Or sterilise them. Never hear of a couple on benefits unable to conceive. Chavs breed chavs.

 

[throwaway4372]

Make dog ownership too expensive for chavs imo.

 

[cheesefest]

Dogs have become status symbols. This and children should not never become status symbols.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Previously, the numbers have been much lower, fatal attacks averaged 3.3 per year until 2022, when it shot up to 10.
If you look at 2022, out of those 10 attacks, 5 of them involved a Bully XL.
If you take out the attacks by that breed - then 2022 wouldn’t have been much different than normal, the additional 2 attack increase over the baseline could perhaps be simply down to people having more dogs, after Covid.

I'm more interested in why ownership of BXLs suddenly shot up, when they'd not even featured in the stats for the previous 30-odd years.

The lockdowns stopped dog training schools. Never understood why people got a dog for the first time ever during lockdowns when access to things to help them was very limited.
Think some people didn't think outside the box when obtaining a dog.

This is certainly a factor for most owners, but doesn't apply to those status seekers who wouldn't give a toss about responsible ownership in the first place.

Make dog ownership too expensive for chavs imo.

How?
Back-street breeders deliberately avoid regulations. You'd have to heavily police this and bust almost every one of them.

 

[sidimmu]

No.
An increase in the consequences does nothing to deter people. It never worked when the death penalty was a consequence and it wouldn't have any meaningful impact here or in any other legal capacity.
What deters people is the likelihood of being caught and punished. If they think there's a chance they will get away with it, they'll chance it.

I need this explaining further how making it a criminal matter would not reduce the numbers of owning such dogs. Likelihood is why people chance things, not why people choose to do stupid things.
If their dog losing control was going to result in a criminal trial for them, I know I wouldn't be owning one and if I did, it would not be out in public in any fashion where it could cause damage/death. (lead, muzzle, low traffic routes)

I'm more interested in why ownership of BXLs suddenly shot up, when they'd not even featured in the stats for the previous 30-odd years.

I dont think we saw them come across in the UK until the 2010's.
BXL's should go on the dangerous dog list and should not be owned.

@ttaskmaster You do not seem to like any suggestion in here. What is the way forward then?
This thread shows that if we ban dogs thats not right, banning certain breeds not right,, you dont think we can or should police breeders, if we punish owners thats not right. In previous posts you have indicated that;

Doesn't change the fact that it's the owner's negligence and irresponsibility causing all these problems.

But dont want the owners punished accordingly for their stupidity or lack of responsibility?

 

[sidimmu]

IF you think all breeds pose the same risk or can't see the outlier here after stats have been posted then this is a basic numeracy issue tbh. That bad owners are often an issue is even more reason to not want say XL Bullies, this isn't a monocausal thing though, some dogs are inherently more dangerous in terms of their capacity to cause deaths and/or serious injury, being in denial of that is frankly silly.

Where did I say that? All dogs have a risk, you'd be silly to say otherwise.

I am not opposed to breeds being added to dangerous dog list, never contested that.

Outside of this, I don't get why the reply, seems like the ramblings of someone who always needs to get their point in (that's its not the owners, its the breed, yeah we know).

 

[adidan]

The RSPCA would disagree with BSL

Our blog | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk

Our regularly updated blog is packed full of exclusive insights from our experts and frontline staff.

www.rspca.org.uk

Interestingly since COVID livestock 'worrying' has increased too and that doesn't appear to be breed specific (Countryfile last night) (e: although it was an issue before COVID too obviously)

Livestock worrying cases rise by 50% as farmer pleas with public

A farmer has urged dog owners to keep their pet on a lead wherever there is livestock, as the cost of livestock attacks have increased more than 50%.

www.farminguk.com

The common denominator appears to be owners inability to control their dogs.

 

[dowie]

Consequence, which you seem to be focused upon, is just one factor of risk.

Nope, my point was that this is not a monocausal thing and that your focus on only the owner is flawed.

Outside of this, I don't get why the reply, seems like the ramblings of someone who always needs to get their point in (that's its not the owners, its the breed, yeah we know).

But that isn't what I've argued as I told you before, it seems to have gone over your head.

 

[Freakbro]

A statistic I heard on the radio the other day (I've just googled to confirm it) is that around 9000 people a year in the UK are hospitalised with severe dog bites! That's about 1 every hour

I've got a 2 inch scar running down the back of my hand and out between my index and middle finger from a doberman bite that happened about 40 yrs ago. Long story short, I was taking our Alsatian and Doberman out for their walk and the normally very placid Doberman bitch had a bad sore on her back leg and wasn't in a good mood. The Alsatian, being boisterous, ran past her and banged the leg and she just flipped out completely. Absolutely went mental and just went for the other dog, they were just a ball of fur, teeth and blood. Nothing I tried would get them to stop and in the end I just piled in and prised them apart, ending up stood on ones neck while holding the other at arms length.

What I didn't realise at the time was as I went in to grab them, the Doberman snapped a bite at the other dog and sunk its canine in the back of my hand, which then left a deep furrow as I pulled my hand out, I was too covered in dog blood and high on adrenaline to notice at the time.

That was until I managed to get home, with the assistance of a passer by, and mum made a bowl full of hot dettol mix to wash the blood off, I stuck my hands in and.....found out about the furrow in the back of my hand! I think they had to pull me off the ceiling!

And those two dogs had lived together for years and got on perfectly, there was absolutely no issue between them previously, as I said the Doberman was generally a very placid dog. It just shows any animal can flip out randomly when they've reached the end of their tether.

 

[Felon]

I'm more interested in why ownership of BXLs suddenly shot up, when they'd not even featured in the stats for the previous 30-odd years.

It is a valid question,

Large powerful dogs, which are more than capable of guarding and protecting like Rottweilers, Bullmastiffs, GSDs, etc, etc, have been around for centuries and have never really featured particularly highly in attacks or fatalities, other than the odd one or two (which is going to occurr in a country with 10+ Million dogs being owned)

I think you could cook up a whole load of theories as to why the BXL has suddenly shot up in popularity?

• Chavs/Gangsters can weaponise them with full legality
• People feel more frightned because the police suck - get a terrifying dog to protect you?
• Social media allows an unregulated environment to exist, so these things can be bought and sold more easily than ever before and remain totally under the radar..?
• They've become expensive, so idiots with no idea are breeding them from the front rooms of their council flats, in order to make £10k tax free out of thin air...
• No licensing, or mandatory certification, insurance or other legislation makes it too easy to get your hands on such an animal?

I could go on spitballing, but I have no real idea - maybe is a combination of all of those things...

 

[Dis86]

@Freakbro stats that have already been highlighted in this thread and then denied by multiple people. Even with evidence posted. Amazing how many people challenged it and then ran away and didn't engage further because they clearly don't like what the numbers demonstrate but are too engrained in their bias to accept it.

Dog attacks, injuries and killings are a significant and growing problem which people are completely in denial over.

 

[sidimmu]

But that isn't what I've argued as I told you before, it seems to have gone over your head.

Ignored the rest of my response too, classic Dowie.

Yeah you have said that before without going in to further detail, like you have done here.
So what is your angle? Is it the owners? Is it the breed? If not, honestly just spell it out.

 

[potatolord]

@Freakbro stats that have already been highlighted in this thread and then denied by multiple people. Even with evidence posted. Amazing how many people challenged it and then ran away and didn't engage further because they clearly don't like what the numbers demonstrate but are too engrained in their bias to accept it.

Dog attacks, injuries and killings are a significant and growing problem which people are completely in denial over.

There is a recent cluster of fatalities, and that is undeniable.

Whether this will persist or is a hangover from COVID related acquisition and lack of training/ socialisation won't be clear for another 4 to 5 years.

Let's just hope that the recent killings are not a positive selling point for a certain type of inadequate moron...

 

[cheesefest]

When my mum was 3.5 years old, she visited her aunt and uncle who had a terrier type dog. Out of nowhere, the dog just attacked mum biting her on leg and hand. My uncle took the dog to the vets the following day to put him to sleep. As worried as his daughter (mum's cousin) was a few months old.

 

[gingergundog]

Absolutely... Some dogs are bread as intimidating attack dog status symbols. They are purposely bread for fighting and aggressive traits are bread into them rather than out of them.

It's basically all the pit bull types. And they are generaly owned and bread by low lifes.

It's not to say that a staffie can't be a good pet for an experienced dog owner as long as it's kept under strict control and trained well.

What we are talking about here are aggressive breeds that require a lot of stimulation, coupled with lazy or otherwise incapable owners.

Have you ever been around or have any experience with staffies? They are not naturally aggressive and like any dog wont be if trained and socialised well. They are actually very biddable and its the exception rather than the norm for them to be raised in the incorrect way.

You are painting them all with the same brush when there are thousands of them living across the country happily as a family pet. Sure you going to get some that will breed for the wrong reasons. You will also get people who want a dog so buy a dog without thinking, if some of these people put an ounce of thought into where the dog comes from and history, the quality of the breeders etc maybe it would lessen the availability of dogs with less desirable traits.

If you are going to talk about pit bull types in general don't then single out the staffy.

 

[ttaskmaster]

I need this explaining further how making it a criminal matter would not reduce the numbers of owning such dogs. Likelihood is why people chance things, not why people choose to do stupid things.
If their dog losing control was going to result in a criminal trial for them, I know I wouldn't be owning one and if I did, it would not be out in public in any fashion where it could cause damage/death. (lead, muzzle, low traffic routes)

I dont think we saw them come across in the UK until the 2010's.
BXL's should go on the dangerous dog list and should not be owned.

@ttaskmaster You do not seem to like any suggestion in here. What is the way forward then?
This thread shows that if we ban dogs thats not right, banning certain breeds not right,, you dont think we can or should police breeders, if we punish owners thats not right. In previous posts you have indicated that;

But dont want the owners punished accordingly for their stupidity or lack of responsibility?

A threat of something that might happen is empty until the person you're threatening actually believes that it definitely WILL happen.
This is why most people don't run blindly across the road, or why they don't stick their hand in boiling water...
If being an irresponsible owner was definitely going to result in a criminal trial that would certainly see them heavily punished, and the person knew it, that would go some way to lessening the issue... But that still doesn't stop people completely.

People who choose to do stupid things do so because they actually want to. Maybe they think it's cool, or they have something to prove, or it's just the thrill of doing something wrong. Whatever that driver is, that's what you have to address. Until then, those people won't give a **** what laws and trials you throw at them, and will still do the stupid things.

2010... It's 13 years later, yet we're only seeing incidents from these dogs occur in the last two years.
So again, what do you think has so suddenly changed?

As for breeders - Yes, I abso-funking-lutely think they should be policed, and very heavily focussed on the unlicenced/illegal ones... but I don't believe it will happen, as the resources required are too great for the result of preventing just a handful of deaths. Many more people die from other things, so the resources will be spent on addressing those instead.

Owners - Again, yes, punish them accordingly, but from a position of them knowing full well that they're doing wrong, and that everyone they care about will think them an absolute **** for doing so. The latter part will again likely never happen without some considerable effort on the social side and upset of the politically correct brigade, but could quite easily be done if enough people cared.

If you remove the desire for a status dog, you stop both that issue and remove the demand that makes back-street breeding profitable.
That is your way forward.

Nope, my point was that this is not a monocausal thing and that your focus on only the owner is flawed.

Assuming you're only on about your outlier bull-type-terrier dogs...

Owner chooses to get such a dog.
Owner chooses not to learn about being a responsible owner.
Owner chooses to neglect their dog.
Owner chooses to put the dog in a situation where it might harm others.

Sorry, you'll have to explain how any of this **** is not purely down to the owner, here...

Long story short, I was taking our Alsatian and Doberman out for their walk and the normally very placid Doberman bitch had a bad sore on her back leg and wasn't in a good mood. .... It just shows any animal can flip out randomly when they've reached the end of their tether.

From the way you've written this, I presume you were aware of both the sore and the bad mood at the time?

Large powerful dogs, which are more than capable of guarding and protecting like Rottweilers, Bullmastiffs, GSDs, etc, etc, have been around for centuries and have never really featured particularly highly in attacks or fatalities, other than the odd one or two (which is going to occurr in a country with 10+ Million dogs being owned)

In post-WW2 years GSDs had a very bad reputation, because they were used by the Nazis and German forces to guard their facilities and concentration camps. Hitler himself had several.
They were so feared and hated, that the Kennel Club changed the breed name to Alsatian.
They were also regarded as dangerous dogs in America as they were favoured by gangsters and smugglers. Australia even banned their importation.

Around the 60s-70s Rottweilers became the dog everyone considered the most dangerous. 320psi bite and a lot of weight behind it, with a high prey drive and high responsiveness to aggression training, saw a lot of them being used as fighting dogs. This subsequently made them the status dog of choice back then.

Dobermanns had a similar reputation, being originally bred as a defence dog for a tax collector and well-known for stranger-directed aggression, yet managed to remain almost completely absent from the kill stats, with only 1 such record.

This was then followed by the Staffie crosses that were being re-bred for fighting, and similarly its own status dog reputation.

Stats aren't easily available pre-80s, but 8 GSDs and 5 Rottweilers were responsible for four of the 7 fatalities in 80-99,
2000-2009 shows 3 Rottweiler and 1 GSD incidents, out of 11. There were also 6 incidents with a dog that had 'Bull' in it's name, albeit four quite separate breeds, and 3 of which were Staffies.
Pit Bulls and Bulldogs have really only started topping the charts since 2010.

Generally these are all highly intelligent, high energy dogs that require lots of mental and physical exercise, as well as decent, responsible ownership.
Ignorance, or "handwaving" the considerable requirements involved in owning such dogs is usually a factor, likely exacerbated by the Covidiot adopters, so I would presume that some poor Chav shut-in emerging into the world feels so insecure that he overcompensates with something stupid like an XLB...

 

[Chris Wilson]

During and since the Chinese Virus puppy prices have risen to never before seen levels in the UK, so not only has a fashionable desire for intimidating looking dogs appeared from criminals and the inadequate, but the huge profit in breeding ever larger sized, overly and unnaturally muscled dogs has caused unscrupulous breeders to interbreed various things to develop the wildest looking animals they can, for which they charge thousands. This combination may slowly ebb, as prices are already falling for pedigree pups, and the public is losing patience with those they know are facilitating the breeding of dogs solely for this specialised and disturbing marketplace.

Hopefully....