Don't have a garage?
- Thread starter Siliconslave
- Start date
Associate
- Joined
- 19 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 615
- Location
- Manchester
Don't forget a few small differences between France and the UK
1. There is no HSE (or equivalent) in France.
2. The liability extent is much less in france. There johnny farmer traps his hand in his car while working on it, everyone (inc the govmt etc) will say 'aah well, unlucky, c'est la vie..... Here, the accident will be reported under RIDDOR legislation, a million H&S inspectors will descend, the place will be closed during investigations, 800,000 new guidelines will be produced that the company must follow to try and avoid customer stupidity!!!!
3. They're mad
4. UK nanny state
The regulations that exist in the Uk for health & safety, safe working practices would prohibit this from ever happening, IMHO.
I remember something like this existing in the North-east 20-odd years ago and it closed down then due to not making any money!!!
Just trying to visualise noob car owner with no experience of car repairs and a welder
1. There is no HSE (or equivalent) in France.
2. The liability extent is much less in france. There johnny farmer traps his hand in his car while working on it, everyone (inc the govmt etc) will say 'aah well, unlucky, c'est la vie..... Here, the accident will be reported under RIDDOR legislation, a million H&S inspectors will descend, the place will be closed during investigations, 800,000 new guidelines will be produced that the company must follow to try and avoid customer stupidity!!!!
3. They're mad
4. UK nanny state
The regulations that exist in the Uk for health & safety, safe working practices would prohibit this from ever happening, IMHO.
I remember something like this existing in the North-east 20-odd years ago and it closed down then due to not making any money!!!
Just trying to visualise noob car owner with no experience of car repairs and a welder
Muncher your calculations are flawed as they focus on breaking even in year one and subsequent years will have much less outflows as you do not need to purchase lifts, tools etc...
If the 4 ramps were estimated to only be in use 50% of the day it would make more sense to purchase 2 ramps and have them in use 100% of the time.
If the costs are anything like what you have projected (im not saying they are not) then it won't be that good a business as would take to long to return any money and to expand would cost the exact amount over again.
If the 4 ramps were estimated to only be in use 50% of the day it would make more sense to purchase 2 ramps and have them in use 100% of the time.
If the costs are anything like what you have projected (im not saying they are not) then it won't be that good a business as would take to long to return any money and to expand would cost the exact amount over again.
Last edited:
With respect Muncher - I know you do have some excellent Insurance knowledge, but you're no Underwriter.
The market is incredibly soft at present, rates are crashing for all kinds of commercial classes, EL/PL/PRODS/PI/Property/Con Loss - you name it - I can get it at least 10% cheaper than last year. Last week I renewed a Liability risk at £30,000, down from £50,000 last year, same risk profile, same Turnover, same cover.
Any Company who's experiencing increased liability premiums this year is either A) making way too many claims, so should invest in some decent RM & H&S advice or B) showing a lot of growth in which case premiums will be on the up in tandem with increased t/o & wage/salary payments or C) has the ****est Insurance Broker the world has ever seen.
Premiums are NOT rising at all. They started to soften early 05.
Is your comment regarding the cost of the average PL claim a typo? Way too many zero's.
Personally I'd say the Insurance cost (Property/BI/Liability) would be around £20k.
Last thing - typically Motor Traders like to lease the most expensive business equipment when starting out, so you could get lifting tables etc on lease.
The market is incredibly soft at present, rates are crashing for all kinds of commercial classes, EL/PL/PRODS/PI/Property/Con Loss - you name it - I can get it at least 10% cheaper than last year. Last week I renewed a Liability risk at £30,000, down from £50,000 last year, same risk profile, same Turnover, same cover.
Any Company who's experiencing increased liability premiums this year is either A) making way too many claims, so should invest in some decent RM & H&S advice or B) showing a lot of growth in which case premiums will be on the up in tandem with increased t/o & wage/salary payments or C) has the ****est Insurance Broker the world has ever seen.
Premiums are NOT rising at all. They started to soften early 05.
Is your comment regarding the cost of the average PL claim a typo? Way too many zero's.
Personally I'd say the Insurance cost (Property/BI/Liability) would be around £20k.
Last thing - typically Motor Traders like to lease the most expensive business equipment when starting out, so you could get lifting tables etc on lease.
Sure I'm no underwriter.
http://www.abi.org.uk/Newsreleases/viewNewsRelease.asp?nrid=11244
The £565k was quoted from one site, which now on further reading relates to claims from construction risks.
I still think it's the kind of risk that would make insurers run away crying and the HSE go mental.
My costs aren't flawed, they reflect exactly what you would face in the first year with the fixed costs. Even if you split the fixed costs over 2/3 years it doesn't really alter the picture as a whole.
http://www.abi.org.uk/Newsreleases/viewNewsRelease.asp?nrid=11244
The £565k was quoted from one site, which now on further reading relates to claims from construction risks.
I still think it's the kind of risk that would make insurers run away crying and the HSE go mental.
My costs aren't flawed, they reflect exactly what you would face in the first year with the fixed costs. Even if you split the fixed costs over 2/3 years it doesn't really alter the picture as a whole.
Maybe Muncher is spending all his time studying business as apposed to doing it?
If the finances wer'e so heavily stacked against them, as in they have to charge 5times more than they are to break even. I can confidently suggest that the garage in France would never of opened.
If the finances wer'e so heavily stacked against them, as in they have to charge 5times more than they are to break even. I can confidently suggest that the garage in France would never of opened.
I knocked up a quick cashflow forecast and it is profitable in the long run.
At 50% capacity (based on £6/per half hour, 4 Ramps, open 12 Hours) it makes 2k profit per month after expenses.
The main problem seems to be insurance.
My dad said that tools could be leased aswell, as could the ramps which will spread the cost out more. Also renovation costs won't be much as there are places with hardfloors already, what would i need to do? Decorate? And I wouldn't need to make any structural differences..
He said insurance would be feasible but I forgot what he said, i'll ask later.
At 50% capacity (based on £6/per half hour, 4 Ramps, open 12 Hours) it makes 2k profit per month after expenses.
The main problem seems to be insurance.
My dad said that tools could be leased aswell, as could the ramps which will spread the cost out more. Also renovation costs won't be much as there are places with hardfloors already, what would i need to do? Decorate? And I wouldn't need to make any structural differences..
He said insurance would be feasible but I forgot what he said, i'll ask later.
Last edited:
- Joined
- 11 Dec 2002
- Posts
- 10,874
- Location
- Darkest Norfolk
with the whole lift issue would pits not be cheaper and more practical for some jobs? Mainly due to the fact that they don't require any special training, and its pretty much the fault of the driver if the mess it up. Obiously they aren't practical for all jobs, but for non-suspension / wheel jobs they would be fine
- Joined
- 11 Dec 2002
- Posts
- 10,874
- Location
- Darkest Norfolk
AmDaMan said:
no idea
woulda thought it would be slightly cheaper than 3k, but then you never know.... and you would need to get permission from the owner of the place i guess. Just chucking ideas around mate (PS hope theres going to be an ocuk motors discount
)
Soldato
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2003
- Posts
- 2,872
- Location
- Manchester
I dont think you can use pits anymore, they all had to filled in didnt they?
Having been in business of sorts for nearly 20 years (so im speaking from experience) i can see how this could make a profit if marketed right.
Insurance will be the biggest outgoing by a long shot, but thats the same for a lot of types of business too.
IMO the biggest downfall is the general british attitude and ignorance. Too many people in the UK are just not willing to have a go at something they know very little about, they are not happy to learn when joe bloggs garage will do it for £40 an hour. In Europe people tend to have a more laid back attitude towards life and are willing to try new things.
So your left with enthusiasts and people who are into disposable motoring, in the grand scheme of things this is a small amount of people. How many modded cars are home built nowadays? less and less all the time, its all stuck in a garage and paid on plastic!! thats a lot easier than getting your fingers dirty
If marketed to the right people then it could be very profitable.
Having been in business of sorts for nearly 20 years (so im speaking from experience) i can see how this could make a profit if marketed right.
Insurance will be the biggest outgoing by a long shot, but thats the same for a lot of types of business too.
IMO the biggest downfall is the general british attitude and ignorance. Too many people in the UK are just not willing to have a go at something they know very little about, they are not happy to learn when joe bloggs garage will do it for £40 an hour. In Europe people tend to have a more laid back attitude towards life and are willing to try new things.
So your left with enthusiasts and people who are into disposable motoring, in the grand scheme of things this is a small amount of people. How many modded cars are home built nowadays? less and less all the time, its all stuck in a garage and paid on plastic!! thats a lot easier than getting your fingers dirty
If marketed to the right people then it could be very profitable.
As for insurance, why not just exempt all liability?
You can't exempt for personal injury or death through negligence of the staff or maintenance of equipment but if some idiot drops his car on himself it's his own fault. Just get everyone to sign a disclaimer.
I was under the impression the staff would not get involved in helping customers. As long as the tools are maintained to a high standard it would be fine.
Liability insurance is high usually but this is a different situation imo.
You can't exempt for personal injury or death through negligence of the staff or maintenance of equipment but if some idiot drops his car on himself it's his own fault. Just get everyone to sign a disclaimer.
I was under the impression the staff would not get involved in helping customers. As long as the tools are maintained to a high standard it would be fine.
Liability insurance is high usually but this is a different situation imo.
I think pits are still used, our loacal has one (if it's the same typre i'm thinking of) The planning permission to modify the building would be a pain in the arse though.
I think there are 2 main markets this idea appeals to, you've probably already figure them out:
Enthusiasts - These people like to work on their own pride and joy, they don't trust mechanics. They enjoy tinkering at the weekend etc. Why would they want to come to my place instead of their own place? Well ease of use, possibly dont have working space (unlikely), socialise with other enthusiasts, and the obvious one, don't have ramp access.
Teens, younger people - Yup these would make up a huge market segment imo. They lack tools, accesories, ramps (duh), even haynes manuals.. These are the customers that will make the business profitable throughout the day as the bunk off uni or college (like me), they spend all disposable income on their car, they like to fit their big exhausts and bodykits..
What it all boils down to is insurance, you can exempt liability apart from the obvious death or personal injury but it's the risk, my dad mentioned something but i forgot and it started to sound like it would be a possibility, until i'm clued up on it all i'm not sure.
No the staff would directly intervene with anything, they are supervisors, they do NOTHING else. It's the simplicity of it all.
I think there are 2 main markets this idea appeals to, you've probably already figure them out:
Enthusiasts - These people like to work on their own pride and joy, they don't trust mechanics. They enjoy tinkering at the weekend etc. Why would they want to come to my place instead of their own place? Well ease of use, possibly dont have working space (unlikely), socialise with other enthusiasts, and the obvious one, don't have ramp access.
Teens, younger people - Yup these would make up a huge market segment imo. They lack tools, accesories, ramps (duh), even haynes manuals
.. These are the customers that will make the business profitable throughout the day as the bunk off uni or college (like me), they spend all disposable income on their car, they like to fit their big exhausts and bodykits..What it all boils down to is insurance, you can exempt liability apart from the obvious death or personal injury but it's the risk, my dad mentioned something but i forgot and it started to sound like it would be a possibility, until i'm clued up on it all i'm not sure.
No the staff would directly intervene with anything, they are supervisors, they do NOTHING else. It's the simplicity of it all.
Jet said:
How?
The garage would have a positive duty of care, not just a case of "our staff didn't push the car on top of you so we're not liable".
Employers liability insurance?
Occupiers liability insurance?
It has been done before, and the firms went bust.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=249821&p=1
You estimates you are turning over £4300 per month.
So you think you can insure, rent a place and pay 2 staff for £2,000 a month, not to mention renting all the equipment?
Opening 12 hours a day, you will actually need 4 staff to comply with the working time directive. That's £140,000 per year alone. That revises the operating costs to £260,000 per year.
So you've jumped from operating costs of £260k down to £25k? How?
You don't know how or why that firm went bust based on the details given. They deviated away from their original aims and objectives and started to over complicate things. You don't know their pricing stuctures, wage structures, hours in operation etc..
My turnover based on my calculations are 9.5K a month to make a profit monthly costs would have to outweigh this... This is what we are trying to reduce, monthly overheads. As imo 9.5k is a nice figure for such a small business.
Oh and this is based on 26 hours usage of the maximum of 48 in a day @ £6per half hour which is reasonable to me. So quite a large margin.
Staff- 2 or 4 in rotation, what's the difference, they are paid for what they work and that will be the 12 hours I need. NI is paid based on wages also.
About insurance which is the deciding factor here, just had a quick chat with dad: Ramps are fixtures, they become part of the building this will reduce a lot of complications and costs. This will be covered on 'buildings insurance' then their is public liability. If a ramp fails even though it's been tested in that annum the ramp manufacturer will share liabilities.
Employees liability could go 2 ways, either they are adequately trained on ramp usage and assist which would increase cost or they are left with basic instructions manual, eliminates cost and puts more responsibility on the customer (these things are easy to operate anyway) but that's not the point.
He says insurance for a child home was 15k this covered death and injury from wrong medicines usage etc.
My turnover based on my calculations are 9.5K a month to make a profit monthly costs would have to outweigh this... This is what we are trying to reduce, monthly overheads. As imo 9.5k is a nice figure for such a small business.
Oh and this is based on 26 hours usage of the maximum of 48 in a day @ £6per half hour which is reasonable to me. So quite a large margin.
Staff- 2 or 4 in rotation, what's the difference, they are paid for what they work and that will be the 12 hours I need. NI is paid based on wages also.
About insurance which is the deciding factor here, just had a quick chat with dad: Ramps are fixtures, they become part of the building this will reduce a lot of complications and costs. This will be covered on 'buildings insurance' then their is public liability. If a ramp fails even though it's been tested in that annum the ramp manufacturer will share liabilities.
Employees liability could go 2 ways, either they are adequately trained on ramp usage and assist which would increase cost or they are left with basic instructions manual, eliminates cost and puts more responsibility on the customer (these things are easy to operate anyway) but that's not the point.
He says insurance for a child home was 15k this covered death and injury from wrong medicines usage etc.