Dumb/Lazy White British

[Xordium]

I suggest you read the original article,i, it covers your questions.
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/cmpo/publications/papers/2014/wp333.pdf


I'm not generalizing anything here, but reiterating factual statements from the BBC article. London's school children do well, why, because of immigration. That doesn't explain anything about other cities or immigrants, no one said it did.

I have read the original article and if it's conclusions were true the results would be transferable elsewhere. But that doesn't happen. Which goes back to my edit there and about the specific nature of the immigrants and whether it is really fair to compare London to anywhere else. Let alone make the sweeping generalisations that are being made in the media and in this thread.

" It is argued that ethnic minority pupils have greater ambition, aspiration
, and work harder in school. This is the main argument here – London has more of these pupils and so has a higher average GCSE score than the rest of the country"

If that was true then why are Bradford and Leicester not up there?

 

[D.P.]

Because there are likely confounding factors, the GDP per capita of Bradford is a fraction of London and socioeconomic status is a well known predictor of educational performance.

That doesn't detract the findings. The results are well substantiated

 

[Xordium]

Oh so there are now confounding factors ....

So it could actually be that:

"It is argued that pupils, whose parents are largely professional and higher educated in well-paid jobs in the capital irrespective of origin, have greater ambition, aspiration, and work harder in school. This is the main argument here – London has more of these pupils and so has a higher average GCSE score than the rest of the country"

 

[Sindri]

That would be a possible causation, but the evidence from the article is that there is no effect so there is no point looking for causes to something that doesn't exist.

It's not really a possible causation, finances/resources directly impact the scope of a pupils performance.

Were this not the case then there would be no difference between the results third world countries could achieve compared to ours.

To claim I am stating an irrelevant cause is absurd. If the article truly states that resources have no correlation to academic success then it is simply wrong.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Like i said historically London has had higher GCSE scores for obvious reasons, the question is whether these scores have gone down or up over time. If they were just as high compared to the rest of the country, in the past as well, with different levels of immigration then how it can be concluded that diversity is the primary reason for london success? Especially when diversity is not exclusive to london. Immigration in london probably has positive and negatives effects in relation to education results.

 

[Xordium]

Is interesting what has happened in this thread and this is one of the fundamental problems facing this society today. We have an OP which has branded people dumb and lazy and stated they suck (whether light-hearted or not) based solely on skin colour. We have research that has decided to examine and find that people are not as good as another based upon skin colour.

For decades white people have put forward the argument that non-whites were sub-human, not as good, something less - initially openly and through more subtle association with the intent being the same. They were rightly condemned for this and challenged.

Move forward to now and again such hate and vitriolic is being spread but yet without challenge. Why are people so afraid to point out what is going on here? Why are people so ready to accept something they would fight if the skin was another colour or the whole topic be closed if it were to label a group who worshipped a certain deity? Why has this thread not been altered or challenged by the mod team I am sure they have read it? Is it because it hasn't been reported and if not why not - is it enough to laugh and shrug such things off - insert slippery slope fallacy here? Or do we have to protect some people more?

You are not championing the rights of immigrants with this line of thought - you are peddling bad science along with false conclusions that can not be drawn from the data given and most of all your are providing ammunition to a small number of very vocal people who would like to change society to the detriment of all. You wonder why you get a right-wing reaction well this hardly helps does it.

 

[anything I don't mind]

It is a part of an agenda to push equality based reasoning. The study is not coming from an economic perspective. Instead of looking for all types of reasons the study by the professor sets off to understand the success of london schools. If the conclusion is diversity then it is because he has set out from a perspective of equality. Instead of the obvious economic reasons why london schools see success he sees a social reason, that conveniently fits in to his pro eu pro immigration opinions.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

groen, are you aware of the inherent irony of you being opposed to immigration? Genuine question, not starting fires.

 

[esoteric]

Is interesting what has happened in this thread and this is one of the fundamental problems facing this society today. We have an OP which has branded people dumb and lazy and stated they suck (whether light-hearted or not) based solely on skin colour. We have research that has decided to examine and find that people are not as good as another based upon skin colour.

For decades white people have put forward the argument that non-whites were sub-human, not as good, something less - initially openly and through more subtle association with the intent being the same. They were rightly condemned for this and challenged.

Move forward to now and again such hate and vitriolic is being spread but yet without challenge. Why are people so afraid to point out what is going on here? Why are people so ready to accept something they would fight if the skin was another colour or the whole topic be closed if it were to label a group who worshipped a certain deity? Why has this thread not been altered or challenged by the mod team I am sure they have read it? Is it because it hasn't been reported and if not why not - is it enough to laugh and shrug such things off - insert slippery slope fallacy here? Or do we have to protect some people more?

You are not championing the rights of immigrants with this line of thought - you are peddling bad science along with false conclusions that can not be drawn from the data given and most of all your are providing ammunition to a small number of very vocal people who would like to change society to the detriment of all. You wonder why you get a right-wing reaction well this hardly helps does it.

Because White people don't care about racism on White people.

 

[Xordium]

Because White people don't care about racism on White people.

That's good then because black people ignore slavery instigated by black people so they can both call it all square then.

 

[D.P.]

Oh so there are now confounding factors ....

So it could actually be that:

"It is argued that pupils, whose parents are largely professional and higher educated in well-paid jobs in the capital irrespective of origin, have greater ambition, aspiration, and work harder in school. This is the main argument here – London has more of these pupils and so has a higher average GCSE score than the rest of the country"

No, because the difference lies in the ethnicity. Read the article. If ethnicity was not the dependent factor then the the results wouldn't be what they are. The results clearly indicate that immigrants in London outperform white British children in London.

Other factors may be required to explain poor performance in other cities but that is not relevant to the findings of the research,

 

[esoteric]

That's good then because black people ignore slavery instigated by black people so they can both call it all square then.

I would happily talk about it but such things will get censored so I won't waste time on it. Much time anyway, see below.

Remember that interview with Sam L Jackson on Django Unchained where the interviewer kept asking how he felt about "The N Word" and Sam is playing the idiot replying "What word?" basically trying to get him to say it.

And that's why I won't talk about it, because we can't actually talk about it. I agree 100% with, Samuel.

Until we can say these words, even in a sensible discussion, is there any point in trying?

I had a whole paragraph which I have omitted, I even altered the above because I fear what I was typing, which was the first 2 letters followed by ... might be in breach of bypassing the censor and the Mods would just delete it and I would get a ban. Which just proves my point that until we can say these words society isn't ready to tackle racism.

The whole thing draws parallel in my mind to Harry Potter in which nobody is allowed to say, Voldermort.

 

[D.P.]

It's not really a possible causation, finances/resources directly impact the scope of a pupils performance.

Were this not the case then there would be no difference between the results third world countries could achieve compared to ours.

To claim I am stating an irrelevant cause is absurd. If the article truly states that resources have no correlation to academic success then it is simply wrong.

You are stating a reason for an effect that doesn't exist, so it is completely pointless.

 

[Xordium]

If ethnicity was not the dependent factor then the the results wouldn't be what they are.

I've read the article and the article in no way addresses the age of parents, educational level of the parents, etc.

Do I think 'white trash' in Romford will have children who do less well than immigrant families with professional parents. Of course I do but I don't think that is wholly attributable to skin colour?

Globally black people do less well academically than white people - do you think that is because they are black? Because I don't - I think it's for the very same reasons that this article seems willing to push to one side.

You are completely ignoring the contrary evidence provided in the very article which I alluded to earlier about Birmingham - where the highest scoring schools are predominately white populated - and by the way Birmingham is ahead of London in the figures but again the media and you have missed that part because it doesn't fit with the agenda.

The effect is more pronounced even in Birmingham than London - Birmingham has the best schools in the country as a general rule (it's why I live there) - but the best schools have very low ethnic mixes and raise the whole areas ratings. That's not because they are white it's again because the schools that do very well have parents who are well-educated themselves.

 

[D.P.]

Is interesting what has happened in this thread and this is one of the fundamental problems facing this society today. We have an OP which has branded people dumb and lazy and stated they suck (whether light-hearted or not) based solely on skin colour. We have research that has decided to examine and find that people are not as good as another based upon skin colour.

For decades white people have put forward the argument that non-whites were sub-human, not as good, something less - initially openly and through more subtle association with the intent being the same. They were rightly condemned for this and challenged.

Move forward to now and again such hate and vitriolic is being spread but yet without challenge. Why are people so afraid to point out what is going on here? Why are people so ready to accept something they would fight if the skin was another colour or the whole topic be closed if it were to label a group who worshipped a certain deity? Why has this thread not been altered or challenged by the mod team I am sure they have read it? Is it because it hasn't been reported and if not why not - is it enough to laugh and shrug such things off - insert slippery slope fallacy here? Or do we have to protect some people more?

You are not championing the rights of immigrants with this line of thought - you are peddling bad science along with false conclusions that can not be drawn from the data given and most of all your are providing ammunition to a small number of very vocal people who would like to change society to the detriment of all. You wonder why you get a right-wing reaction well this hardly helps does it.

Move forward to now and again such hate and vitriolic is being spread

You lost me right there. The OP's title aside no one is spreading any hate.

The article has a very simple conclusion which you seem to fail to grasp and are seeking all sorts of miscellaneous reasons why it is wrong without putting forward any kind of evidence.

What we should actually be discussing here is how we can motivate pupils and parents to try harder at school and understand the value of education.

Instead you are trying and failing to deride the science. If you have evidence the science in wrong then write your own article, get it pubished and debunk the work.

 

[dowie]

obvious troll thread is obvious

 

[D.P.]

I've read the article and the article in no way addresses the age of parents, educational level of the parents, etc.

Do I think 'white trash' in Romford will have children who do less well than immigrant families with professional parents. Of course I do but I don't think that is wholly attributable to skin colour?

Globally black people do less well academically than white people - do you think that is because they are black? Because I don't - I think it's for the very same reasons that this article seems willing to push to one side.

No one is saying it has anything to do with skin color

The article makes it very clear that there is nothing inherent about the different ethnic backgrounds to cause the results:

"There is nothing inherently different in the ability of pupils from different ethnic backgrounds, but the children of relatively recent immigrants typically have greater hopes and expectations of education, and are, on average, more likely to be engaged with their school work.

You are so wound up about potential flaws in the results that you are failing to see the simplicity in the underlying causes. Sort out school motivation and expectation for all pupils who don't see the value of education and the differences will go away, in london.

 

[Xordium]

No one is saying it has anything to do with skin color

Oh bless do you think I am solely conversing every post to you - have you not read the OP ... the clue is in the actual title! And the clue is in the other thread that was deleted earlier - you can say one thing but not another.

The article makes it very clear that there is nothing inherent about the different ethnic backgrounds to cause the results:

" It is argued that ethnic minority pupils have greater ambition, aspiration, and work harder in school."

Oh really sounds like they are doing that there in their main premise ...

You are so wound up about potential flaws in the results that you are failing to see the simplicity in the underlying causes. Sort out school motivation and expectation for all pupils who don't see the value of education and the differences will go away, in london.

I am not wound up I am pointing out the potential flaws are actual flaws and that the conclusions draw therefore do not stand. That such conclusions are then being drawn towards political goals is not exactly brilliant.

 

[D.P.]

As for Birmingham the original research provides lots of reasoning, including the fact that 30.3% of the pupils are Asian compared to 18.6% in london.

 

[RDM]

Sort out school motivation and expectation for all pupils who don't see the value of education and the differences will go away, in london.

Ignoring the inflammatory nature of the OP, exactly how do you propose to do the above?