Edinson Cavani gets three match ban for not being racist

Fubsy · 4 Jan 2021 at 19:22

I think that's the argument though isn't it? In Uruguay it is not intended as a reference to race, and taken sincerely would not breach the rules as they stand.

It is in the translation to this societies prejudices that gives the term it's racist meaning. Or is it completely out of the realms of possibility that Edinson Cavani is not a racist, did not write a racist word, and the FA have made his words racist through translation and applied the prejudices and issues of our nation to the language of another nation?

Suarez didn't have that "not what it means" leg to stand on because he happened to be frothing at Evra at the time.

BaZ87 · 4 Jan 2021 at 22:40

Fubsy said:
I think that's the argument though isn't it? In Uruguay it is not intended as a reference to race...

I'm not sure that is the case. The literal translation obviously does reference race but from what I understand it is often used towards white people with darker features which suggests it is a term relating to race.

And the FA haven't made his words racist, if they believed or determined that they were then he'd have faced a longer ban.

Shamikebab · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:06

What is this literal translation? I've checked three different Spanish to English websites and none of them have this literal translation.

BaZ87 · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:19

Shamikebab said:
What is this literal translation? I've checked three different Spanish to English websites and none of them have this literal translation.

It doesn't reference race? Every South American linguistic expert that's discussed this term both now and 9 years ago have said the direct translation would be "little black/little blackie/little black man".

Shamikebab · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:32

BaZ87 said:
It doesn't reference race? Every South American linguistic expert that's discussed this term both now and 9 years ago have said the direct translation would be "little black/little blackie/little black man".

You should let the Uruguayan FA know then, because they seem to think it doesn't mean that in their language.

In our Spanish, which differs greatly from the Spanish spoken in other regions of the world, the nicknames negro/a or negrito/a are used assiduously as an expression of friendship, affection, closeness and conviviality, and in no way refer derogatory or discriminatory to race or skin color of who is alluded to.

The National Academy of Letters of Uruguay expresses it with forceful clarity in its formally issued statement, making explicit, among other arguments, the following:

"In the Spanish variety of Uruguay, for example, between couples and friends, between parents and children, you can hear and read forms such as gordis, gordito, negri, negrito / a. In fact, the person being treated with these vocatives do not have to be overweight or dark skinned to receive them. "

BaZ87 · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:36

Shamikebab said:
You should let the Uruguayan FA know then, because they seem to think it doesn't mean that in their language.

I think we have a different understanding of the English language Shami because nowhere in that quote does it say the term doesn't reference race. It only says that you don't have to be dark skinned to be called negrito

Fubsy · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:40

BaZ87 said:
"little black/little blackie/little black man".

Isn't that the direct English translation though? What does it mean in Spanish, in Uraguay? Not translated, what does it mean? We know what the naughty words are here - the FA are basically telling Uraguayans, as a nationality as a whole, by using these types of words, are racist. FIFA got anything to say about it?

Why the **** would Edinson Cavani use that word (in English) to thank a non-black friend? It's insincere to think he did it for any other reason than he genuinely didn't know that it would cause all us racists in this country to apply our racist meanings to it.

As the second reply states, dems the rules. It's technically correct to apply those rules but it's a very heavy handed response just to be seen as zero-tolerance by being intolerant to linguistic nuance, tradition and culture. Maybe the FA should mandate all social media by players should be in English to remove the doubt?

Shamikebab · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:43

That's not even the direct translation, there is no direct translation because it's not in any dictionary.

Negro means black (not specifically race, the colour)

-ito is a diminutive that alters the world to give it an endearing quality.

BaZ87 · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:51

Care to explain why Cavani accepted the charge then Shami? Seems a bit of a stupid thing to do if the term isn't referencing race.

Fubsy said:
Isn't that the direct English translation though?

According to linguistic experts, yes. Shami disagrees. From what I understand it's a slang word so it's difficult to say what the exact meaning of the word is and probably why Shami's not found it in the 3 dictionaries he's searched.

As for the FA are calling all Uruguayan's racist, they're not. We're going round in circles here. If the FA believed his words were directly racist then he'd be looking at a 6 game ban. Simply refering to somebody while referencing race carries an automatic 3 game ban though.

Shamikebab · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:55

Cavani specifically said that while he was accepting the charge he disagreed with it. He seems like a professional who is just willing to take the hit and move on.

If it's difficult to say what the exact meaning of a slang word is then how can they possibly find someone guilty based on that? It's dangerously moronic behaviour and the strength of response from both the Uruguayan FA and player's association makes that pretty clear.

Fubsy · 4 Jan 2021 at 23:56

He pleaded guilty that's why. I mean who can be arsed with the FAs computer says no attitude.

The word is either racist or not. Either give him a 6 game ban for being a naughty racist or let him off.

I'd like to see the FA explain how the word is inherently racist without actually being racist or offensive itself. It looks like in banning Cavani they have actually offended more people than he did with the word.

BaZ87 · 5 Jan 2021 at 00:03

Shamikebab said:
Cavani specifically said that while he was accepting the charge he disagreed with it. He seems like a professional who is just willing to take the hit and move on.

If it's difficult to say what the exact meaning of a slang word is then how can they possibly find someone guilty based on that? It's dangerously moronic behaviour and the strength of response from both the Uruguayan FA and player's association makes that pretty clear.

The Uruguayan FA and players supported and tried to claim Suarez's innocence after he bit Chiellini too

They probably did after the Evra incident also although I can't remember to be sure.

It's a variation of the word black, he called somebody this variation of the word black, the FA rules (like them or not) prohibit this. No problem if you want to complain about the FA's rules but that is the rule and he fell foul of it and that's why he didn't appeal. There is no way he would accept a charge that he wasn't guilty of.

Fubsy said:
He pleaded guilty that's why. I mean who can be arsed with the FAs computer says no attitude.

The word is either racist or not. Either give him a 6 game ban for being a naughty racist or let him off.

Like the BLM thing, this is a separate issue. Whether the rules should be as they are or not is another matter but under the current rules it's black and white and why he pleaded guilty. He didn't have a defence to the charge, he could only argue that no intent or malice was meant to keep the ban to 3 games.

Shamikebab · 5 Jan 2021 at 00:08

I don't think the rules ban the mention of the word black. They ban referring to skin colour, which he didn't because as established that word does not refer to race.

BaZ87 · 5 Jan 2021 at 00:12

Shamikebab said:
I don't think the rules ban the mention of the word black. They ban referring to skin colour, which he didn't because as established that word does not refer to race.

Where has this been established? It's only been established that a white person can also be called a negrito. I'm not sure how you can call somebody black (or a variation of the word), even if they're not black, without it referring to race. And again, Cavani pleaded guilty to that charge!

Fubsy · 5 Jan 2021 at 00:15

GENERAL BEHAVIOUR
E3

E3.1 A Participant shall at all times act in the best interests of the game and shall not act in any manner
which is improper or brings the game into disrepute or use any one, or a combination of, violent
conduct, serious foul play, threatening, abusive, indecent or insulting words or behaviour.

E3.2 A breach of Rule E3.1 is an “Aggravated Breach” where it includes a reference, whether express or
implied, to any one or more of the following :- ethnic origin, colour, race, nationality, religion or belief,
gender, gender reassignment, sexual orientation or disability.

E3.3 Where an Aggravated Breach of Rule E3.1 is committed in youth football by a Player aged under 12, no
disciplinary charge will be brought. In such cases, the Player will be subject to an education programme,
the details of which will be provided to the Player by The Association.

E3.4 Where two or more Participants from a Club commit any Aggravated Breach of Rule E3.1 in any twelve
month period, regardless of whether any such breach falls within sub-paragraph E3.4, the Club itself
will be liable to a sanction imposed by a Regulatory Commission.

Loaded up the handbook for the rule in question.

I can see where he has "arguably" broken E3.2, but how has he broken E3.1 which precludes E3.2?

Who in their right mind would plead not guilty in the climate of froth at this moment in time? He's gone the guilty route in the hope it just passed and is forgotten about.

The **** having parties during a pandemic are bringing the game into disrepute and breaching E3.1 left right and centre!

Shamikebab · 5 Jan 2021 at 00:17

Why not? Why does black specifically have to mean skin colour? It could be dark hair, or someone that wears black. The word itself has no connotations about it being skin colour.

Fubsy · 5 Jan 2021 at 00:21

Aren't there also players who's names are literally Blackman?

BaZ87 · 5 Jan 2021 at 00:23

Shamikebab said:
Why not? Why does black specifically have to mean skin colour? It could be dark hair, or someone that wears black. The word itself has no connotations about it being skin colour.

I didn't realise he called his clothes negrito. It's a bit difficult to claim the word doesn't relate to race when the man that said it pleaded guilty to the charge of it referencing race. And I'm yet to see any so called expert say it doesn't refer to race. Everything I've seen or read now and 9 years ago say it does albeit not meant in or considered as offensive in South America.

Fubsy said:
Aren't there also players who's names are literally Blackman?

I have to admit, this and the Montenegro post made me lol.

Shamikebab · 7 Jan 2021 at 14:04

So the FA have released their full investigation comments into this https://the-fa.com/uE4VWc

Basically confirming that they understood it wasn't racist, the people involved didn't think it was racist, the expert didn't think it was racist but they decided to ignore all that.

It also confirms that they think it was wrong because the word negrito sounds like a racist word regardless of any translation. This pretty much confirms that you're not even allowed to say words that sound like a racist word. God forbid anyone signs a player from Niger, presumably they'll be immediately banned.

It was the FA’s case that a reasonable observer with no understanding of South American cultural norms in respect of the use of the word “negrito”, and with no understanding of the relationship between the Player and his close friend, would inevitably consider the words used by the Player to be of a kind infringing Rule E3(2).15.

They also said it was unusual that the player hadn't received social media training...wtf. Presumably now we'll be warning all our new signings that the FA are morons and as soon as you sign here you aren't allowed to speak your own language.

I wish I could be a fly on the wall in this training he's going to get from the FA.

BaZ87 · 7 Jan 2021 at 14:28

Shamikebab said:
Basically confirming that they understood it wasn't racist, the people involved didn't think it was racist, the expert didn't think it was racist but they decided to ignore all that.

They didn't ignore that. That was the reason why the ban was reduced from the standard 6 games to just 3 games.

Shamikebab said:
It also confirms that they think it was wrong because the word negrito sounds like a racist word regardless of any translation. This pretty much confirms that you're not even allowed to say words that sound like a racist word. God forbid anyone signs a player from Niger, presumably they'll be immediately banned.

I'm not sure if you didn't understand the FA's written reasons or are just trying to twist things. The reasons do not say that he was banned because it sounds like a racist word. The findings state that Cavani's messaged translates to "Thanks little black guy/ Thanks Blackie/ Thanks Black” and that to anybody with no understanding of South American culture, it would be considered offensive.