Electric Cooker Installation

[PancakeSniffer]

Not really sure if i should wade into this tbh but...

17th ed isn't law - non statutory, you can feel free to ignore the entire book if you feel like it, just wouldn't look good if something happens and you end up in court.

To paraphrase its says something along the lines of 'you don't need to comply with these guidelines you can use alternative methods to provide equivalent levels or safety' & 'complying with these guidelines does not guarantee complying with the law'

It even says in the book and multiple questions in the exam about its legal status. If i remember correctly the statutes coving this are EWAR and a few others.

Yes the book is technically non statutory, but covers the law and what it says and regulates is what you are and are not allowed to do hence it may be used in the court of law. Not complying by the 17th edition is illigal.

Part P however is not required by law, and itself covers 95% of the 17th edition but adds some more safety guidelines that arent required by law and obviously just required to pas Part P certification.

 

[ANONANON]

Yeah i remember a question about it being non statutory, but may be used in a court of law to claim compliance.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

^^^^^

While you 2 are arguing amongst yourselves, i'll answer the OP's question.

A dual fuel double oven normally has 4 gas burners on top, an electric grill/oven under the burners and a main electric oven at the bottom. If that is the case with your new cooker, then you need to do the following:
1)Isolate the cooker switch on the fuseboard.
2)Remove the single socket and check that the cable feeding it is 6mm T&E. If it's 2.5mm T&E, then replace it with 6mm T&E.
3)Fit a cooker outlet plate in place of the single socket, along with about 2m of 6mm T&E to connect to your new cooker.
4)Connect the gas bayonet to the gas wall plate.
le socket).

And what will happen if he breaks the ring final whilst messing with shizzle he doesn't understand???
Also you should NEVER terminate a device with solid 2-core +CPC, ALWAYS use flex!

As others have said don't mess with it unless you are competent and totally understand what your doing, a broken ring final can and will burn your house down. I'm with the yanks on that one, ring finals are fundamentally flawed and personally I'd rather install more radials for peace of mind encase some muppet breaks the ring!

/16th Ed. Sparky

 

[HardwareGeek]

And what will happen if he breaks the ring final whilst messing with shizzle he doesn't understand???
Also you should NEVER terminate a device with solid 2-core +CPC, ALWAYS use flex!

As others have said don't mess with it unless you are competent and totally understand what your doing, a broken ring final can and will burn your house down. I'm with the yanks on that one, ring finals are fundamentally flawed and personally I'd rather install more radials for peace of mind encase some muppet breaks the ring!

/16th Ed. Sparky

As far as i understand from the OP its a dedicated cooker circuit so it will not involve a ring or anything else, just a cooker switch above the work top and a socket run from this below the worktop.

Ps. Probably wise to link the appliance in with heat resistance flex

 

[PancakeSniffer]

I believe I answered the OP's question on the last page;

"The OP already has the cooker switch and cooker outlet in place (in this case the cooker outlet is fitted with a single plug socket), all he needs to is buy a cooker outlet to replace the plug socket that is there and hard wire the cooker cable (which should be already connected to the cooker) to it.... That is it, and he is perfectly allowed to do that by law.

If he doesn't have a clue about electrics however and isn't confident they by all means use an electrician, but he is perfectly allowed to do so by law. And is also very simple and just a matter of connecting the single set of red/green/black (or brown/gren/blue) cables in the wall to the other other set of 3 cables that come from the cooker via the cooker outlet which has 3 terminals one for each colour and labelled L(red/brown) E(green/copper) N(black/blue) and stick the faceplate on, much like a socket just bigger cables."

If for some reason the cable coming from the Cooker socket is not 6mm then you would need an electrician to simply change the cable over from the switch to the outlet, but I doubt very much the electrician who did the installation made a cooker socket with a cooker outlet and didnt use 6mm cable... if he did it either isnt qualified anyway or is just a spur off the normal plug sockets. Like I said though I highly doubt.

 

[Lethagized]

Part P however is not required by law,

It's part of the building regs so it is required by law. When you said he can do the work himself and forget about it, you were wrong because he wouldn't be complying with building regulations thus breaking the law. It's been mentioned in my posts that he needs certification under the building regs to do the work, NOT 'perfectly allowed to do that by law' as you put it.

Don't you think it would have just been a load easier to just say "yeah mate, you better get someone to do it and get a certificate for it to keep everyone happy" instead of insulting long winded replies?

By the way, yes i know i also made insulting replies, but i was pretty calm to start off with, but you continued to be insulting, so i just thought "i aint having non of this you ****"

 

[PancakeSniffer]

It's part of the building regs so it is required by law. When you said he can do the work himself and forget about it, you were wrong because he wouldn't be complying with building regulations thus breaking the law.

No it isn't *another facepalm* I have explained exactly what it is many times very clearly, and it isn't under British Standards Wiring regulations you numpty.
Building regulations are what is required on a new build of a house or domesting building, it has nothing to do with you changing something in your home like a plug socket after the building is built, this is what IEE Wiring regulations are required for.
It is a separate regulation that is Part P and not required by law and is made up of all the BS Wiring regs 7671 but more safety regulations which are Part P only and not BS Wiring regs and not required by law but required to pass Part P ceritfication which again isnt required by law but 7671 is, I swear its liek you actually know now and just having nothing left to say

Again, all that needs to be said is this;

If you aren't allowed to do something, or have to do something in a certain way, then that is law and it is regulated in 17th edition BS7671. If you are allowed to do something and there is no regulation for it then it isn't in the regulation book otherwise the book would be absolutely huge and this is how law/regulation books work... seriously come on.

For you to prove your statement that you aren't allowed to change a fitting such as a plug socket in the kitchen you have to find in BS7671 where it stated that regulation, but you cant because it doesn't exist and you are fully allowed to do so.

Posting a picture of a Part P regulation that isnt in the 17th edition is not proof that you cant by law change a fitting in the kitchen.. thats just proving that you cant under Part P do so and there for it wont be Part P certified which is just a separate regulation not required by law, but it will be under the law which is BS7671.

 

[HardwareGeek]

As i understand it:

BS7671 - non stat - guidance only

Building regs are law, part p is within the building regs, therefore part p is law.

Not complying with part p is an offence.

So basically the opposite of what you have been saying.

 

[mollymoo]

Doesn't it depend on the age of the house, sort of different regs for new builds?

 

[Lethagized]

No it isn't *another facepalm* I have explained exactly what it is many times very clearly, and it isn't under British Standards Wiring regulations or British Stangards Building Regulations you numpty.
It is a separate regulation that is Part P and not required by law and is made up of all the BS Wiring regs and more safety regulations which are Part P and not BS Wiring regs and not required by law but required to pass Part P ceritfication, I swear its liek you actually know now and just having nothing left to say

Again, all that needs to be said is this;

If you aren't allowed to do something, or have to do something in a certain way, then that is law and it is regulated in 17th edition BS7671. If you are allowed to do something and there is no regulation for it then it isn't in the regulation book otherwise the book would be absolutely huge and this is how law/regulation books work... seriously come on.

For you to prove your statement that you aren't allowed to change a fitting such as a plug socket in the kitchen you have to find in BS7671 where it stated that regulation, but you cant because it doesn't exist and you are fully allowed to do so.

Posting a picture of a Part P regulation that isnt in the 17th edition is not proof that you cant by law change a fitting in the kitchen.. thats just proving that you cant under Part P do so and there for it wont be Part P certified which is just a separate regulation not required by law, but it will be under the law which is BS7671.

Well, like i said. Proof or GTFO. Link me to a website that explains exactly what you've tried to explain, and i'm not talking about some forum where 20 blokes are arguing like we are.

One would think that anybody with half a brain would just go "here, take a look at this and STFU", but not you. You continue to post stuff that i cba to decipher any more, that's why i don't have much more to say. After almost 6 hours arguing, i have to draw a line somewhere and agree to disagree unless i'm otherwise proven wrong.

You ninja edit all your posts as well, so i don't really think you know what to say. You post ****, then change your mind once you think of that imaginary fact in your head.

 

[PancakeSniffer]

As i understand it:

BS7671 - non stat - guidance only

Building regs are law, part p is within the building regs, therefore part p is law.

Not complying with part p is an offence.

So basically the opposite of what you have been saying.

As I said;
Building regulations are what is required on a new build of a house or domesting building, it has nothing to do with you changing something in your home like a plug socket after the building is built and passed certification, this is what IEE Wiring regulations are required for.

 

[PancakeSniffer]

Well, like i said. Proof or GTFO. Link me to a website that explains exactly what you've tried to explain, and i'm not talking about some forum where 20 blokes are arguing like we are.

One would think that anybody with half a brain would just go "here, take a look at this and STFU", but not you. You continue to post stuff that i cba to decipher any more, that's why i don't have much more to say. After almost 6 hours arguing, i have to draw a line somewhere and agree to disagree unless i'm otherwise proven wrong.

You ninja edit all your posts as well, so i don't really think you know what to say. You post ****, then change your mind once you think of that imaginary fact in your head.

Again, you havent proven anything, I have... the book is proof;

I have explained how the book of law works and that is my proof... what do you want? Its like saying can you prove that I am allowed to put a plug into a socket? ofcourse you cant because thats not how the book of law works, you proof would be not finding it regulated in the book which it isn't as it isnt a regulation.

If you aren't allowed to do something, or have to do something in a certain way, then that is law and it is regulated in 17th edition BS7671. If you are allowed to do something and there is no regulation for it then it isn't in the regulation book otherwise the book would be absolutely huge and this is how law/regulation books work... seriously come on.

For you to prove your statement that you aren't allowed to change a fitting such as a plug socket in the kitchen you have to find in BS7671 where it stated that regulation, but you cant because it doesn't exist and you are fully allowed to do so.

Posting a picture of a Part P regulation that isnt in the 17th edition is not proof that you cant by law change a fitting in the kitchen.. thats just proving that you cant under Part P do so and there for it wont be Part P certified which is just a separate regulation not required by law, but it will be under the law which is BS7671.

 

[lee1101]

Im gonna leave you two at it now. Thanks again for the help, hope you can agree to disagree soon!

 

[mollymoo]

oops

 

[HardwareGeek]

I think we are starting to go backwards, a few post ago i thought you agreed that BS7671 wasn't law, now it appears you are back to saying it is.

Afaik the actual laws are very broad and vague along the lines of 'equipment must be fit for purpose and suitable for intended use' and from this very vague legal position the regulations like BS7671 are created to provide guidance on how to comply with the vague law, for example from being suitable for use / environment the IP ratings guidance would be given but the laws themselves would not set out or even mention IP ratings, just suitable etc.

 

[PancakeSniffer]

If you comply by 7671 IEE wiring regs then you comply by law and all the regulations can be used in a court of law should anything go wrong.
They cant be strict Laws because there might be a case in a ceretain situation where the IEE 7671 is missing something very rare or odd for example, they are the law.

 

[RetiredGreyFox]

What sounds so silly about ignition? That's what it's being used for at a guess. To ignite the gas burners or oven. Are you on your period or something? Being so snide.

Well you've made yourself look a right plonker by not even reading the OP - go you.
See below.

We are looking to replace this with a dual fuel double oven and hob, electric oven and gas hob.

OP, if you do what he says and basically put 13amp plug & lead on it I guarantee you will have problems.
I'm no electrician but I've seen 100s & 1000s of electric and dual fuel ovens wired up and seen the consequences of a 13 amp and normal size electric lead on a cooker and used a CO2 extinguisher to put them out (sometimes it can set fire to the lagging and burn the cable).

KitFit 1 has given the correct answer but I really don't know where you stand on regulations.

 

[PancakeSniffer]

Again like I said I anwered the OP's question already;

"The OP already has the cooker switch and cooker outlet in place (in this case the cooker outlet is fitted with a single plug socket), all he needs to is buy a cooker outlet to replace the plug socket that is there and hard wire the cooker cable (which should be already connected to the cooker) to it.... That is it, and he is perfectly allowed to do that by law.

If he doesn't have a clue about electrics however and isn't confident they by all means use an electrician, but he is perfectly allowed to do so by law. And is also very simple and just a matter of connecting the single set of red/green/black (or brown/gren/blue) cables in the wall to the other other set of 3 cables that come from the cooker via the cooker outlet which has 3 terminals one for each colour and labelled L(red/brown) E(green/copper) N(black/blue) and stick the faceplate on, much like a socket just bigger cables."

"If for some reason the cable coming from the Cooker socket is not 6mm then you would need an electrician to simply change the cable over from the switch to the outlet, but I doubt very much the electrician who did the installation made a cooker socket with a cooker outlet and didnt use 6mm cable... if he did it either isnt qualified anyway or is just a spur off the normal plug sockets. Like I said though I highly doubt."

 

[mollymoo]

OP, if you do what he says and basically put 13amp plug & lead on it I guarantee you will have problems.
I'm no electrician but I've seen 100s & 1000s of electric and dual fuel ovens wired up and seen the consequences of a 13 amp and normal size electric lead on a cooker and used a CO2 extinguisher to put them out (sometimes it can set fire to the lagging and burn the cable).

KitFit 1 has given the correct answer but I really don't know where you stand on regulations.

Surely it depends on the size of the oven. Ours is wired in the way you describe, it was done by someone who has nigh on 40 years in the trade, some of it substation, he really does know what he is on about. I will be seeing him shortly and asking him about this, as you seem to also know what your on about.

 

[Lethagized]

Well you've made yourself look a right plonker by not even reading the OP - go you.
See below.

Wut? He said in his op he currently has a gas hob and oven. The socket behind would be supplying power for the ignition, clock and fan (if fitted)

I read the op just fine