Employer is requiring biometric data for clocking on, can I refuse?

Cosimo · 13 May 2009 at 15:58

fini said:
Please stop posting this factually inaccurate nonsense.

I'm not, are you a BT man?

India does not have the data protection laws that we have in the EU.

Dano · 13 May 2009 at 16:00

Le_Petit_Lapin said:
Why would they want that? Are you going to have to wee on the doors in future to get them to open?

Why would they want my fingerprint data? It's not like they cannot tell when I arrive and depart already.

Lagz said:
If its only a fingerprint, then I agree with Le_Petit_Lapin.

I think I would prefer my fingerprint to be stored in India than in the UK. It isn't like UK companies have a great record of securing data properly, and Indian technology companies are pretty good these days.

Even if someone did get hold of your fingerprint, what are they going to do with it? The only thing I can imagine someone doing with it is using it to "frame" you in some way, but then if someone wanted your fingerprint that much they could just follow you for a while and take it off a glass or door handle that you have touched. . .

I don't know about the legal aspects, but there are many companies that do it (and quite reasonably so whenever security is important), so I would guess its within their rights.

Finally, you should check what the exact format of the data is. It may well be that they store enough information such that your fingerprint can be verified, but not enough such that the fingerprint can be reconstructed.

It's nothing to do with security, it's purely being used for clocking in and out and completely uneeded.

I shall indeed ask what format the data is in.

dowie said:
'biometric data' tbh.. its just a buzzword

who cares if you're finger print data is in a foreign country?

I care, I'd also care if it was being held in the UK.

I'd be more worried about other stuff than finger prints.

Do you not have a facebook account or online e-mail account? Ever posted your CV to a jobsite? I'm sure you've got more data out there hosted in foreign countries probably with less security & controls over its use.

Yes, but it was my choice.

Frankly if you are going to winge & moan about something like this then you'll just be showing yourself up as a bit of a jobsworth to management.

Yes, because I really am winging and moaning :rolleyes:

Personally I couldn't care less if someone stuck my fingerprint data up on a public webpage - it makes absolutely no difference to me.

Good for you, does that mean I have to be the same? No.

Dano · 13 May 2009 at 16:03

Dolph said:
of course you can refuse. if you aren't willing to abide by your terms of employment there is always a solution

Yes, I know that. I asked if there were any other options.

Dano said:
What grounds do I have for refusing this or am I in a situation where my only option is to hand in my notice?

Rich_L · 13 May 2009 at 16:04

Yes, but it was my choice.

Is it not also your choice to accept this or stop working there?

I'd say the grounds you have are those you described. Go talk to someone higher up about it and see what they say.

Haha or claim religious beliefs:

In a recent high profile labour dispute, several employees were terminated for refusing to enrol in a biometric hand identification system introduced by the employer to enhance security in the workplace. The labour arbitrator found that the terminated employees sincerely believed that if they submitted to biometric scanning they would be tainted with the “mark of the beast,” risking their damnation. The employer’s failure to accommodate such beliefs was held to violate human rights legislation. In such circumstances, employers should explore alternatives to accommodate these religious beliefs, such as a pass-card access system used in conjunction with the biometric system.

Lulz, religion eh?

Dano · 13 May 2009 at 16:05

Rich_L said:
Is it not also your choice to accept this or stop working there?

Yes, as I have already stated.

Lagz · 13 May 2009 at 16:05

simulatorman said:
Hand it over to them and not have any legal framework to support your data.

I believe the legal framework is exactly the same. If his data gets lost, it is his employer who is legally responsible, not the company that the task of holding the data is outsourced to. . .

Secondly, if any of the stored data is sensitive, then I'm sure his employer will have established a sensible contract with the company to which the data is being outsourced (i.e. if you lose this, you will pay us a large amount of money). This is pretty much identical to what happens when you outsource to a company in the UK. . .

Le_Petit_Lapin · 13 May 2009 at 16:05

Dano said:
Why would they want my fingerprint data? It's not like they cannot tell when I arrive and depart already.

Well how do you clock in and out at present?

Dano · 13 May 2009 at 16:07

Le_Petit_Lapin said:
Well how do you clock in and out at present?

We don't as such. If somebody arrives late or departs early a note is made and the management usually check the cctv footage to confirm, which takes all of about a minute.

J.B · 13 May 2009 at 16:07

From what I've read your problem seems to be with the system of clocking in and out and you're thinking the biometric part of it might have some sort of loop whole.

Would you feel differently if it was a more traditional punch card type clocking in and out?

fini · 13 May 2009 at 16:09

simulatorman said:
I'm not,

You are

are you a BT man?

No, I'm someone who actually knows what the law is.

India does not have the data protection laws that we have in the EU.

India has really quite good data protection laws. Certainly, I'd argue, better than US data protection laws. This is beside the point though because ANY Indian company holding UK data will have agreed, in their contract with the company for whom they are holding the data, to abide by all relevant UK data protection laws and regulations. So the Indian company will be complying with both UK and Indian law. In any case your company, not the Indian company, will ultimately be responsible for any data loss.

I'm not sure who you think you're helping when you post wrong information.

Nix · 13 May 2009 at 16:10

Just because the law is in place does not mean that the data won't be mismanaged. Recall the corrupt individuals selling on bank details in India recently?

PESolution · 13 May 2009 at 16:11

this thread is pure lols. Who cares about your fingerprint, so long as your not an extremist who plans on doing something silly why would it matter.

Le_Petit_Lapin · 13 May 2009 at 16:12

Dano said:
We don't as such. If somebody arrives late or departs early a note is made and the management usually check the cctv footage to confirm, which takes all of about a minute.

Well, fingerprinting is easier to track. Its automatic. I guess they could do it with smart card or something instead of fingerprinting, but I imagine that fingerprint is the cheaper system.

So, do you have any qualms about where your employer keeps that CCTV footage of you at work as well?

fini · 13 May 2009 at 16:14

Nix said:
Just because the law is in place does not mean that the data won't be mismanaged. Recall the corrupt individuals selling on bank details in India recently?

Simulatorman was claiming that there is no legal framework in place to look after your data if it goes to India. What you are talking about could equally happen in the UK - in that regard the UK and India are no different.

Dano · 13 May 2009 at 16:15

Le_Petit_Lapin said:
So, do you have any qualms about where your employer keeps that CCTV footage of you at work as well?

Yes, but that was in place when I applied for and accepted the job, this was not.

PiKe · 13 May 2009 at 16:17

I think the bottom line is, yes you can refuse but good luck finding another job during a recession.

fini · 13 May 2009 at 16:17

Could you clarify why you actually have a problem with it. I know that you've said you don't trust companies to hold such data, but what are you actually worried about happening?

Nix · 13 May 2009 at 16:20

fini said:
Simulatorman was claiming that there is no legal framework in place to look after your data if it goes to India. What you are talking about could equally happen in the UK - in that regard the UK and India are no different.

But it is in reality far more likely to happen in a developing part of the world, and especially where the culture is different from our own or geographically distanced as this breeds a sense of otherness reducing the moral consequence of such actions.

The framework may be in place, sure, but let's not kid ourselves that the world is perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Cosimo · 13 May 2009 at 16:20

fini said:
Simulatorman was claiming that there is no legal framework in place to look after your data if it goes to India. What you are talking about could equally happen in the UK - in that regard the UK and India are no different.

I’m saying that their data protection laws are not the same as in the EU and I know where I would like my data kept.

Gog · 13 May 2009 at 16:22

Dano said:
What grounds do I have for refusing this or am I in a situation where my only option is to hand in my notice?

Without seeing your contract that is an impossible question to answer. I would hazard a guess though, given your stated length of time with the company, that you have no grounds for refusing.