Employment contract questions

[CREATIVE!11]

I made a thread previously I had been offered what wasn't really that great of a job fit (programming role, e-learning course dev but i've taught myself web dev), but I ended up accepting the offer and got sent the emoployment contract and i've got some questions for some of you that work in tech.

First off i'm typically used to 37.5 hours a week 9-5. This role the contract is instead 9-6 (Not entirely happy with that i'll explain). I'm looking to go back to uni and do part time learning for a masters degree in computer science, ideally an extra hour per day to do studying can add up to quite a lot in the long term. I assumed the role was a typical 9-5 but it isn't, any of you in tech / IT how common is this type of shift pattern is?

The other part of the contract is this:
"The employee shall not be entitled to overtime for working in excess of 40hours a week.".

Can anyone shed light on what that means? it may just be a formality and I won't be asked to do overtime, but if I am then that means it would effectively be unpaid correct?

"The employee's normal working hours will be 40 per week. Your standard hours will be 9-6 Monday to Friday with an hour for lunch.". This part makes me just think it's a formality and i'm overthinking it.

As for the contracted hours, I'm thinking of shooting off an email to try renegotiate it down to 9-5 (With a salary adjustment downwards of course) any advice on the best way to try approach this? I'd obviously explain my position with wanting to go do a degree part time.

Cheers lads

 

[peterwalkley]

That does seem a bit off. 37.5 hours is more usual (in my experience anyway) and then specifically saying they won't pay for overtime. With that phrasing its just begging for people to be clock watchers and refuse to do any overtime (since they won't get paid for it).

"Stuff" happens which can mean working overtime is needed, but if its unpaid I'd expect that you get that time back elsewhere such as coming in late, leaving early, morning/afternoon off etc. Some give and take helps both sides, but if its all take then the employer is taking the wee. You'd likely need to be there a while to see how the land really lies.

Is this office based so that you also need to factor in commute time when considering how much free time you'll get for studies ?

Maybe suggest a tweak and ask for 9 - 5.30 and only take 30 minutes for lunch ?

 

[CREATIVE!11]

That does seem a bit off. 37.5 hours is more usual (in my experience anyway) and then specifically saying they won't pay for overtime. With that phrasing its just begging for people to be clock watchers and refuse to do any overtime (since they won't get paid for it).

"Stuff" happens which can mean working overtime is needed, but if its unpaid I'd expect that you get that time back elsewhere such as coming in late, leaving early, morning/afternoon off etc. Some give and take helps both sides, but if its all take then the employer is taking the wee. You'd likely need to be there a while to see how the land really lies.

Is this office based so that you also need to factor in commute time when considering how much free time you'll get for studies ?

Maybe suggest a tweak and ask for 9 - 5.30 and only take 30 minutes for lunch ?

It's remote, that is one big plus I do realise (good or bad depending on how you look at it from a learning perspective).

I was thinking I could try negotiate 9-5 but if that fails the 9-5:30 route would be a good compromise perhaps. I'm just trying to claw back any time I can as I know the degree will be quite challenging (perhaps too much to cope with, I don't know until i'm actually doing it).

The salary loss isn't actually a worry to me at all, I don't plan to be in this role for much longer than a year, mainly it's to get some form of "software developer" role (as that seems to be biggest blocker with any junior roles, having experience) then begin searching elsewhere for something that's a better fit.

 

[Quartz]

I'm looking to go back to uni and do part time learning for a masters degree in computer science, ideally an extra hour per day to do studying can add up to quite a lot in the long term.

If you highlight this I think you'll get a much more sympathetic hearing. Did you mention this in your interview? If you have been accepted on a course then that's even better.

"As you will recall from my interview, I was applying to take a part-time MSc in Computer Science. I am pleased to advise you that I have now been accepted and will be starting on date X. Unfortunately this will put severe constraints on my time and I would like to propose contracted hours of 09:00 to 17:00 with a 30 minute lunch break to give adequate time for studying."

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Is it a small company?

 

[CREATIVE!11]

If you highlight this I think you'll get a much more sympathetic hearing. Did you mention this in your interview? If you have been accepted on a course then that's even better.

"As you will recall from my interview, I was applying to take a part-time MSc in Computer Science. I am pleased to advise you that I have now been accepted and will be starting on date X. Unfortunately this will put severe constraints on my time and I would like to propose contracted hours of 09:00 to 17:00 with a 30 minute lunch break to give adequate time for studying."

I think I did make a brief mention about it yeah, the guy who i'm communicating with himself has a computer science masters (although he doesn't code anymore does more business oriented stuff) so perhaps may be more sympathetic.

Is it a small company?

Yes, it's on the smaller side (which is why in my last thread I was a bit hesitant at taking the role). They were based out of London but now seem to employ remote I assume as it helps cut costs quite a bit.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

If you highlight this I think you'll get a much more sympathetic hearing. Did you mention this in your interview? If you have been accepted on a course then that's even better.

"As you will recall from my interview, I was applying to take a part-time MSc in Computer Science. I am pleased to advise you that I have now been accepted and will be starting on date X. Unfortunately this will put severe constraints on my time and I would like to propose contracted hours of 09:00 to 17:00 with a 30 minute lunch break to give adequate time for studying."

I've pretty much shot off an email today using this although i've pushed a little harder on a typical 9-5 (30 min break).

I'll just see what they say, won't hurt to ask. But if the rest of the team do 9-6 I doubt they will be willing to budge so i'll have to then give it careful consideration on what to do next (I was actually thinking of turning down the role anyway before this as it's just not a good fit).

 

[R.O.S.S.I]

9-6 feels like a long work day. Can't remember the last time i saw that.

 

[jon86]

9-6 feels like a long work day. Can't remember the last time i saw that.

That's been the norm for me for at least a decade, but then I do work in tech and live in the USA.

As I work remotely, I'm now mostly working 8:30am to 5:30pm with an hour for lunch.

 

[R.O.S.S.I]

I try to do either an 8-4 or 9-5 and take a 30 min lunch instead of an hour. Always felt an hour is just a waste of time unless I had something specific extra to do on it.

 

[D.P.]

9-6 feels like a long work day. Can't remember the last time i saw that.

9-6 seems mike a short work day!
More mike 8:30-6:30/7pm with 30 min munch for the last 15 years i have worked

 

[alec]

The other part of the contract is this:
"The employee shall not be entitled to overtime for working in excess of 40hours a week.".

Can anyone shed light on what that means? it may just be a formality and I won't be asked to do overtime, but if I am then that means it would effectively be unpaid correct?

Had this clause in my previous job.
Was explained as IT workers would often need flexibility to stay after hours to fix/debug/finish something and it would add too much paperwork.
However it was also (verbally) agreed that I would not be specifically asked to do extra time or weekend work and the extra evening effort could be balanced by leaving early another day.
Was good company and excellent manager, never a problem there.

 

[HangTime]

My last job was 09:00-18:00. It wasn't rigidly enforced, there was a bit of give and take in both directions.
New job is 09:00-17:00 but I doubt I'll work 5hrs less per week.

The vast majority of full time jobs I've seen are between 35-40hrs a week. The biggest issue I would say is this not always being advertised up front, 40hrs is 14% more hours than 35hrs so it's important to weigh this up against the package on offer.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

My last job was 09:00-18:00. It wasn't rigidly enforced, there was a bit of give and take in both directions.
New job is 09:00-17:00 but I doubt I'll work 5hrs less per week.

The vast majority of full time jobs I've seen are between 35-40hrs a week. The biggest issue I would say is this not always being advertised up front, 40hrs is 14% more hours than 35hrs so it's important to weigh this up against the package on offer.

I think as it's a first dev role and working with tech i'm unfamiliar with i've been MUCH more hesitant about it all + the uni thing upcoming.

Perhaps it may not be rigidly enforced and they expect 5-6 you'll be slow anyway. But really probably varies heavily from place to place.

 

[HangTime]

Well if your previous role was 37.5hrs then it's only an extra 30mins per day. You must have only had 30min lunch break to be working 9-5. Just spend 30min of your lunch break on study or see if they will agree to you doing 9-5:30 with 30min lunch.

 

[dowie]

First off i'm typically used to 37.5 hours a week 9-5. This role the contract is instead 9-6 [...]
As for the contracted hours, I'm thinking of shooting off an email to try renegotiate it down to 9-5 (With a salary adjustment downwards of course) any advice on the best way to try approach this? I'd obviously explain my position with wanting to go do a degree part time.

Your previous role was only 37.5 and this new role is 40 hours a week... so a grand total of 2.5 hours more?

You're only losing 30 mins per day so I think you'd look pretty silly "negotiating" finishing at 5:30... why not just use your longer lunch break for a bit of studying instead?

As for overtime - you're a salaried employee in a professional job not a shift worker with an hourly rate - presumably you have some form of discretionary pay rise and/or bonus at the end of the year?

I think the bit you're missing perhaps is that this is a full-time role and will likely have the same expectations regardless, you may find you're not expected to treat it like clocking off and may have some weeks busier than others etc.. if you've got a deadline then perhaps you'll be working till 7 on a Thursday, for example, the 37.5 or 40 hours a week in the contract may well be largely irrelevant.

 

[Lopéz]

Anything between 35 and 40 hours would be considered "normal", so I don't think there's anything amiss there.

The overtime clause is also fairly standard for salaried employees. You aren't working in a warehouse.

 

[dowie]

The overtime clause is also fairly standard for salaried employees. You aren't working in a warehouse.

One sentiment I've seen on threads here in the past is "i dOnT wORk FoR fReE".

I'm not quite sure why people carry over some hourly work mentality to it when there is a lot more $$$ on offer for a developer/software engineer

The actual expectations re: working hours perhaps should be asked about in the interview process, no good turning up to a new office job where people generally work late and you're clocking off at exactly 5pm or 6pm. On the flip side if you're good at your job then it's much less of an issue and if you're working from home and good at your job then you can perhaps get away with more too.

I mean if OP turns out to be a particularly productive developer who can get loads done well within the working day then why not study during the day while working from home, you can stay online on slack/office communicator and be responsive etc..

Also, a work-from-home job seems ideal if studying, cutting out the commute alone is going to give plenty of spare time.

 

[Semple]

I try to do either an 8-4 or 9-5 and take a 30 min lunch instead of an hour. Always felt an hour is just a waste of time unless I had something specific extra to do on it.

Yeah it's a funny one, sometimes if I'm WFH I'll take an hours lunch to pop out to do the food shop, or if the weathers been nice sometimes I'll either sit out in the sun and have my lunch for the full hour, or even do some stuff in the garden. If it's a wet miserable day though, or I'm in the office with little to do then I'll take half hour and finish early. It's the flexibility I favour most.

If I was forced to have an hour each day, I'd get bored pretty quickly.

Your previous role was only 37.5 and this new role is 40 hours a week... so a grand total of 2.5 hours more?

I presume his old role only stipulated a 30 minute lunch break, so he's looking at it in the way of having to work an extra 2.5 hours a week, but also take an extra 2.5 hour break during the week.

 

[Lopéz]

One sentiment I've seen on threads here in the past is "i dOnT wORk FoR fReE".

I'm not quite sure why people carry over some hourly work mentality to it when there is a lot more $$$ on offer for a developer/software engineer

The actual expectations re: working hours perhaps should be asked about in the interview process, no good turning up to a new office job where people generally work late and you're clocking off at exactly 5pm or 6pm. On the flip side if you're good at your job then it's much less of an issue and if you're working from home and good at your job then you can perhaps get away with more too.

I mean if OP turns out to be a particularly productive developer who can get loads done well within the working day then why not study during the day while working from home, you can stay online on slack/office communicator and be responsive etc..

Also, a work-from-home job seems ideal if studying, cutting out the commute alone is going to give plenty of spare time.

Indeed - FWIW @CREATIVE!11, I think my last 3 or 4 contracts have all had the same overtime stipulation similar to yours, and I don't think I've ever worked more than a handful of overtime hours over that 12 year period. In fact, the opposite, I've usually worked under hours than over.

Just don't expect to see an overtime payment for doing 25 minutes extra one Thursday or anything and you'll be fine.