Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

bigmike20vt said:
there are some crops which can do really well on solar fields apparently. (ones which benefit from the protection the panels can give and dont need the huge direct sunlight.

that being said (and i am genuinely asking the question as i dont know).... do we really need solar farms on arable land? do we not have enough brown field sites and tarmac covered / roof lined space to put solar there instead?.

I am no NIMBY and i would not fight against a solar farm outside my town, but at the same time, i would much rather have a couple of turbines instead and put the solar panels on sainsburys/tescos car park.
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Like everything its much cheaper to do some ground based arrays on farmland vs retrofitting on to brownfield (such as you say supermarkets)

Some crops do ok but they are significantly harder to farm obviously.

Its also supposed to be that they work quite well for grazing animals who gain some benefit from the shelter.

I am not adverse to any renewables, but like you I actually prefer turbines rather than solar fields, although I struggle to see why they cannot be combined for the optimum position, seeing as they are generally operating at their peak when the other is low.
 
Richie said:
I agree... Why is an area of the UK that has doesn't generate any power get to benefit from the cheapest SC in the whole UK?

Please dont answer with the normal "because cost to provide due to population density" answer as the whole issue is more nuanced than a single factor.
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Its a structural issue.
With the grid being UK wide but the DNOs etc local then the parts that benefit from economies of scale do so (the DNO bit) but the part that is having to be strengthened to support everyone but in particularly London/SE (the actual national grid) is shared equally.

The generation is another party who are simply operating a commercial model.

TLDR, all the benefit is gained my London and the SE but none of the negatives.

Its a hangover from when it was nationalised and of course the main generation was based around the midlands/north where the coal pits were.
 
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Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Like everything its much cheaper to do some ground based arrays on farmland vs retrofitting on to brownfield (such as you say supermarkets)

Some crops do ok but they are significantly harder to farm obviously.

Its also supposed to be that they work quite well for grazing animals who gain some benefit from the shelter.

I am not adverse to any renewables, but like you I actually prefer turbines rather than solar fields, although I struggle to see why they cannot be combined for the optimum position, seeing as they are generally operating at their peak when the other is low.
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i am not against them as i said... more undecided.

another option is floating solar.... now i get that salt water has even more challenges, as well as weather issues, tho there are sea solar farms and would be great around our off sure turbines where a lot of the infrastructure is already there............... but i suspect some of our larger fresh water lakes / lochs have enough surface area to dedicate a portion of them to solar without stopping their use for other recreational things. it will also minimise evaporation , act as conservation areas where animals will be safer, and keep the panels cool.... and maybe less offensive to locals
 
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bigmike20vt said:
i am not against them as i said... more undecided.

another option is floating solar.... now i get that salt water has even more challenges, as well as weather issues, tho there are sea solar farms and would be great around our off sure turbines where a lot of the infrastructure is already there............... but i suspect some of our larger fresh water lakes / lochs have enough surface area to dedicate a portion of them to solar without stopping their use for other recreational things. it will also minimise evaporation , act as conservation areas where animals will be safer, and keep the panels cool.
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Personally for panels I would make it a legal requirement that any commercial renovation or new building was panelled up.
Similar for domestic but obviously only new builds. I would actually make it that all new residential had in built solar rooves, covering at minimum 80% of the surface area. The costs of installing in roof as actually not that much higher than installing a traditional roof in the first place.

I am 50/50 about batteries, and the new proposal on limiting battery placement (such as not in lofts) makes requiring batteries somewhat harder. Although I guess they could quite easily include a small outside cupboard in effect that could store upto 10kwh of batteries.
My second house had a meter cupboard that could fit the wheely bin in to the side of my front door, no reason all properties could not be designed and built to cater for similar for batteries.
As ever its lack of vision, but we are still struggling with denialists in regards climate change so there are still too many easy levers for vested interests to pull to derail any sensible decision making.

As a thought in regards generation and paying for the grid maybe the regions should have a weighted balance based on generation so the grid share is partly dependent on the generation production.
This would seem to fairly balance the share of the national grid vs the local generation and may even lead to reduction in NIMBYism overall.

Eg if your generation in the DNO area is over 100% of the usage then they get the maximum 50% reduction in grid fees. If your generation is zero you get 100%.
Multiply the supplies (households and businesses) in each region by the calculation above and you get the weighting for the share of national grid expenses.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
I am 50/50 about batteries, and the new proposal on limiting battery placement (such as not in lofts) makes requiring batteries somewhat harder.
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oooo when did this get proposed and when is it likely to come in? our system was installed in July 2021 and the batteries are in the attic. technically there is room under the stairs for them but it is so much better having them in the roof.

why is that? the obvious answer is fire i guess..... but then if we HAD to have a battery fire i would rather it start in the roof given that heat and smoke rises, giving us more time to get out and less likely for our exit to be blocked than literally under the stairs.**

**mental note, should get a smoke alarm for the attic, i never thought of that.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
oooo when did this come in? our system was installed in July 2021 and the batteries are in the attic. technically there is room under the stairs for them but it is so much better having them in the roof.

why is that? the obvious answer is fire i guess..... but then if we HAD to have a battery fire i would rather it start in the roof given that heat and smoke rises, giving us more time to get out and less likely for our exit to be blocked than literally under the stairs.**

**mental note, should get a smoke alarm for the attic, i never thought of that.
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Its a proposal at the moment, not law yet (might never be) think the solar thread has some stuff about it. (its one of the threads on here)

Its interesting I saw something that said it was part of the MCS regs that smoke alarms are fitted in lofts if any solar kit is installed there, but that they are rarely done!

Its not just lofts, its rooms people sleep in, by exit routes etc

Its all quite sensible but its kind of ramping up the difficulty for some for sure.
 
i just had a google after reading this thread, it got me wondering how common house battery fires are.

i found this.

its an ebike battery charging and most of us here probably know that cheap ebike batteries are dodgy as hell and a different beast to home or car batteries.

but i wont lie........... its scary
www.bbc.co.uk

Halifax lithium battery house fire footage prompts warning

The video of a battery exploding at a house in Halifax shows how quickly the fierce blaze spreads.
www.bbc.co.uk


we currently have a hardwired smoke alarm on the landing next to the loft hatch, as well as one downstairs in the hall.

i think i even have some unused smoke alarms just in a drawer somewhere (the battery ones that we had before getting ones wired into mains) so it is no hassle to stick on in the loft with a new battery in and just change the battery every 12 months or so.
 
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It basically recommends batteries are installed outside.

The issues are twofold, structural and fire safety.

In essence, they don’t trust that installers would do the required structural checks before installing them. Most lofts are not built for 100kg of batteries sat on 1-2 joists. The second issue is that in the event of a house fire (not necessarily related to the battery) is the joist could become damaged, the batteries fall through and kill a first responder.

There is a general health and safety at work issue of getting them up there as well.

The fire risk is the same no matter where they are placed but in a loft it does risk going undetected for much longer. They can also get very hot in the summer.

I’m not aware of any reputable house batteries that have gone up in smoke due to them causing the fire. I’m aware of plenty of e-bikes and scooters going up but they are typically low quality knock off products from an online market place.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
which is precisely why having localised, relatively small generation is surely better.

but on top of that it is also why storage is so important as well as agile or time of use tariffs to encourage us to charge our cars and run the tumble drier when the grid has the most excess and only use essentials when it is under load (or generation is low)
and ultimately, whilst you can do so much with the good will of the people, ultimately money talks and so giving carrots of cheap energy and sticks of very expensive energy at different times is an environmentally friendly way of balancing the grid.

(then with storage, and finally as a case of last resort, curtailment of turbines). At the moment there is too much curtailment and not enough intelligent use of energy imo... tho finally other companies are starting to offer products like octopus have been doing for a while)**

**yes i know economy 7 was a thing years ago but intelligent octopus and Agile are far better products. of course then you have the problem with people refusing smart meters.... which is up to them, but then they dont get to moan if their energy cost rockets.
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The problem with localised generation, for example a subdivision with solar panels on all the houses, generally is too small to go off grid. I haven't seen any significant application of this idea that resulted in going off grid and still being able to use power when you want to and as much as you want to. And as long as your house is still connected to the grid, it will never be cheaper.

Batteries is an interesting idea, but due to the cost of all of this it works out cheaper to stay on the grid. If the day comes where I can install 30kWh battery and enough solar to keep it fully charged everytime I need it and doing this is cheaper than buying grid power, then huge amounts of people will do it. They reason they don't is simple, because it's not cheaper

Currently the price of enough solar panels to fully charge such a battery pack and the price of the battery/car that has the capacity and high load transfer capability is going to work out to the same cost as 50 years of just buying grid power for me (and I'm assuming the battery will last for 50 years and not need replacing)
 
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b0rn2sk8 said:
It basically recommends batteries are installed outside.

The issues are twofold, structural and fire safety.

In essence, they don’t trust that installers would do the required structural checks before installing them. Most lofts are not built for 100kg of batteries sat on 1-2 joists. The second issue is that in the event of a house fire (not necessarily related to the battery) is the joist could become damaged, the batteries fall through and kill a first responder.

There is a general health and safety at work issue of getting them up there as well.

The fire risk is the same no matter where they are placed but in a loft it does risk going undetected for much longer. They can also get very hot in the summer.

I’m not aware of any reputable house batteries that have gone up in smoke due to them causing the fire. I’m aware of plenty of e-bikes and scooters going up but they are typically low quality knock off products from an online market place.
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If you guys wanna know why batteries can be so dangerous, watch this:


 
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Firestar_3x said:
Has anyone else on Octopus had money credited back recently? I've had ~17 credits for electricity on the 6th which seems to correspond to prior monthly bills.

Seems like a system error to me.
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Think they only do this if they need to recalculate and correct your bill, so you get a credit back and then they'll bill you the new stuff.

Keep an eye on it.
 
Grim5 said:
The problem with localised generation, for example a subdivision with solar panels on all the houses, generally is too small to go off grid. I haven't seen any significant application of this idea that resulted in going off grid and still being able to use power when you want to and as much as you want to. And as long as your house is still connected to the grid, it will never be cheaper.

Batteries is an interesting idea, but due to the cost of all of this it works out cheaper to stay on the grid. If the day comes where I can install 30kWh battery and enough solar to keep it fully charged everytime I need it and doing this is cheaper than buying grid power, then huge amounts of people will do it. They reason they don't is simple, because it's not cheaper

Currently the price of enough solar panels to fully charge such a battery pack and the price of the battery/car that has the capacity and high load transfer capability is going to work out to the same cost as 50 years of just buying grid power for me (and I'm assuming the battery will last for 50 years and not need replacing)
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i think we may be at crossed purposes here.

1) by localised generation i meant still on the grid, so wind turbines generating energy for a local town rather than transporting over 100s of miles of cables across the country

2) given i have solar on my roof, and by todays standards it is a very small system (my panels are only 320w compared to modern equivalents of similar size now pushing 500w) and whilst it isnt enough to go off grid it is absolutely not true to say it isnt cheaper.

my system will be 3 years old in July. it cost £8500 to install. The battery (7.2kwh with 6kwh usable) is guaranteed for 5 years, expected life of at least 10 years... the panels 10 year guarantee expected life 25 years. (5.1kwh of panels with a 5kwh inverter). The inverter is the most likely piece of the puzzle to fail but that is "only" around £600 to replace.

combining my solar and battery with an intelligent time of use tariff my electricity bill has been slashed. my system will be operating on pure profit by the time it is 8 years old. its saving me over £1000 a year taking into account the cheap off peak energy, the house running off battery/ solar combined and the excess solar i sell.

getting 2 electric cars actually makes the savings due to my panels hard to work out, but in the 12 months before getting an EV, my yearly electricity costs was less than zero. i built up a huge credit on my account in summer and that saw me through winter. it even covers the cost of a lot of my gas use. my gas/electicity combined direct debit was £70 in 2023. this was way to much as my account ended up £1000 in credit. this is slowly starting to drop since we got 2 EVs last year, and we have been charging them both 100% at home from September... without that however i would have to significantly cut our direct debit and demand a sizable cheque from Octopus.

in 2020 pre solar our combined gas electricity direct debit was £150 and my account was in arrears ... also bear in mind gas and electricity from the grid was significantly cheaper in 2020 than it was in 2023.
 
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Grim5 said:
The problem with localised generation, for example a subdivision with solar panels on all the houses, generally is too small to go off grid. I haven't seen any significant application of this idea that resulted in going off grid and still being able to use power when you want to and as much as you want to. And as long as your house is still connected to the grid, it will never be cheaper.

Batteries is an interesting idea, but due to the cost of all of this it works out cheaper to stay on the grid. If the day comes where I can install 30kWh battery and enough solar to keep it fully charged everytime I need it and doing this is cheaper than buying grid power, then huge amounts of people will do it. They reason they don't is simple, because it's not cheaper

Currently the price of enough solar panels to fully charge such a battery pack and the price of the battery/car that has the capacity and high load transfer capability is going to work out to the same cost as 50 years of just buying grid power for me (and I'm assuming the battery will last for 50 years and not need replacing)
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Its basically impossible to go off grid in the UK with just solar as the winter can be days of low generation.

When wind for domestic becomes a realistic propsal however then solar plus wind would make that much more achievable, although still now guaranteed to be easily off grid.
 
bigmike20vt said:
i think we may be at crossed purposes here.

1) by localised generation i meant still on the grid, so wind turbines generating energy for a local town rather than transporting over 100s of miles of cables across the country

2) given i have solar on my roof, and by todays standards it is a very small system (my panels are only 320w compared to modern equivalents of similar size now pushing 500w) and whilst it isnt enough to go off grid it is absolutely not true to say it isnt cheaper.

my system will be 3 years old in July. it cost £8500 to install. The battery (7.2kwh with 6kwh usable) is guaranteed for 5 years, expected life of at least 10 years... the panels 10 year guarantee expected life 25 years. (5.1kwh of panels with a 5kwh inverter). The inverter is the most likely piece of the puzzle to fail but that is "only" around £600 to replace.

combining my solar and battery with an intelligent time of use tariff my electricity bill has been slashed. my system will be operating on pure profit by the time it is 8 years old. its saving me over £1000 a year taking into account the cheap off peak energy, the house running off battery/ solar combined and the excess solar i sell.

getting 2 electric cars actually makes the savings due to my panels hard to work out, but in the 12 months before getting an EV, my yearly electricity costs was less than zero. i built up a huge credit on my account in summer and that saw me through winter. it even covers the cost of a lot of my gas use. my gas/electicity combined direct debit was £70 in 2023. this was way to much as my account ended up £1000 in credit. this is slowly starting to drop since we got 2 EVs last year, and we have been charging them both 100% at home from September... without that however i would have to significantly cut our direct debit and demand a sizable cheque from Octopus.

in 2020 pre solar our combined gas electricity direct debit was £150 and my account was in arrears ... also bear in mind gas and electricity from the grid was significantly cheaper in 2020 than it was in 2023.
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Yeah my system was £13k but is bigger (more capacity in panels and battery) than yours. Was installed end of Nov 22 and as of end of March 24 it had saved me over 20% of the install costs.
Being able to take advantage of power ups (charge batteries) and saving sessions (received £170 of credit this year by exporting), plus a TOU tariff meant my elec costs are very low in summer and noticeably lower than they would have been over winter.

Plus for me it wasn't simply financial, but also doing the right thing to at least reduce my CO2 impact.
 
I’m not sure why you’d want to be off grid with solar, particularly if you are away from the equator.

Your winter generation is substantially lower than your summer generation so to get enough power in the winter, you’d be substantially over producing in the summer. Part of the economic case of getting solar is selling any excess to the grid.

Thanks to my solar and battery install, my March electricity bill is negative and that’s only possible by being connected to the grid. I sell to the grid during the day when it’s expensive and I buy from the grid when it’s cheap overnight, it’s as simple as that.

Solar is also the second cheapest form of generation, even domestic solar that doesn’t benefit from the same economies of scale as commercial and solar farms.

Solar combined with batteries is also cheaper than fossil fuels currently are.

Solar is only beaten my massive onshore and offshore wind turbines.
Grim5 said:
If you guys wanna know why batteries can be so dangerous, watch this:


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We know why can be dangerous, we also know how they can be made safe with proper controls just like they are in cars already.

Also not all batteries are the same, as pointed out below.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Yes repurposing the car type lithium for home use is what worries me compated to LP04 as you say which is far far less likely to be an issue.
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Most cars have LFP/LP04 batteries in them already anyway.

Almost all home battery products are LFP/LP04 too as they are cheaper and don’t have the same density requirements as a car.
 
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