Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)
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Soldato
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- Wilds of suffolk
Oh interesting higher energy but less dense
One last consideration is heating value. The lower heating value represents how much energy you can get out of one pound (on a mass basis) or out of one cubic foot (on a volumetric basis) of fuel. On a BTU/lb basis, Hydrogen has about 2.5 times the energy density of methane. So, if you burn one pound of hydrogen vs one pound of natural gas, you will get 2.5 times the energy. Sounds great, right?
But because hydrogen is so much lighter, or less dense, you need approximately 3 times the volume of hydrogen as compared to natural gas to get the same amount of energy. So, to get the same “bang for your buck” out of hydrogen as compared to natural gas, you would either need to increase the pressure of the fuel supply or increase the volumetric flow of hydrogen.
Bottom Line: Hydrogen might seem like a bargain in terms of heating value per pound, but you’ll need to bring in much more volume to get the same amount of energy as natural gas.
6. Heating Value
One last consideration is heating value. The lower heating value represents how much energy you can get out of one pound (on a mass basis) or out of one cubic foot (on a volumetric basis) of fuel. On a BTU/lb basis, Hydrogen has about 2.5 times the energy density of methane. So, if you burn one pound of hydrogen vs one pound of natural gas, you will get 2.5 times the energy. Sounds great, right?
But because hydrogen is so much lighter, or less dense, you need approximately 3 times the volume of hydrogen as compared to natural gas to get the same amount of energy. So, to get the same “bang for your buck” out of hydrogen as compared to natural gas, you would either need to increase the pressure of the fuel supply or increase the volumetric flow of hydrogen.
Bottom Line: Hydrogen might seem like a bargain in terms of heating value per pound, but you’ll need to bring in much more volume to get the same amount of energy as natural gas.
Hydrogen has less energy in it than normal gas because its mass/density is so much lower. So mixing it in with normal gas will have a similar impact to E10 vs E5 fuel. You’ll get less out of it.
The other issue is that when you burn it produces NOX, more than gas because you have to burn more of it to get the same output.
The other issue is that when you burn it produces NOX, more than gas because you have to burn more of it to get the same output.
Currently gas is £191 per therm. Lowest in months. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cxwdwz5d8gxt/natural-gas
This article suggests:-
Energy Price Cap Could Soon be Cost-Free if Gas Prices Keep Falling
For the Best News, Forecasts, Exchange Rate Data and Transfer Comparisonswww.poundsterlinglive.com
“Prices per unit will be capped at 10.33p kWh for gas, which equates to approximately 300 pence per therm, and 34p kWh for electricity.”
So as long as gas stays under £300 per therm it won’t cost the government anything and the cap will stay below £2500. Is that correct?
@jon86 : RockLobster was getting confused there with the units.
-> They meant £1.91 per therm (191 pence)
-> 300 pence not pounds
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Nope, not sure where you heard that from?
Hydrogen gas can be at any pressure you want, but the NTS in the uk ranges from 40 bar to 102barg.
So pressure is not the issue when it comes to hydrogen.
The issues that will have to be over come are mainly the gases splitting during transit so youll end up with a layer of hydrogen sat on top of a layer of methane inside the pipes during lowflows.
This will effect readings, samples and off takes dependant on the sample/offtake point.
The other issue is upgrading the valve actuators on the grid, a lot of them are IIa (methane) rated whilst hydrogen is a IIc gas, so every electric actuator/gland will need to be replaced. The mechanical hydraulic gas actuators are not much better they release a burst of power gas after transit which self ignites with large amounts of hydrogen.
The other issue is the LEL and UEL limits of hydrogen which are 4-75% which means working on or near hydrogen is going to be a lot more hazardous than working on the methane 4.4 and 17%. Oh and the fact most gas detectors are designed for methane and you cant bound the smell onto hydrogen molecules.
Hence why i think domestic hydrogen supply is a pipe dream, power station and industrial complexes can and will use it but the safety requirements will put it out of domestic or commercial property use.
Yep - Hydrogen for home heating is a complete non starter.
This video has all of the answers to that statement
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Yes piping hydrogen directly into houses is a non starter but having heating plants that then distribute hot water over districts or city blocks makes sense.
But that also only makes sense if you can get a buttload of green electric, and you might as well be using that to heat in that case
But that also only makes sense if you can get a buttload of green electric, and you might as well be using that to heat in that case
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Many boilers are actually already "hydrogen ready":
Hydrogen boilers: everything you need to know - British Gas
In this article, we’ll bring you up to speed with the latest info and why it’s not really something to worry about.www.britishgas.co.uk
It seems their initial plan is to introduce ~ 20% hydrogen which almost all current boilers would happily work with
I just checked mine which is a pretty common boiler (Ideal Combi ESP 1 35) and it shows as 20% hydrogen blend ready.
Starting trials in my area in 2024, SGN are giving out free boilers and appliances to test the network. From 2025 all new boilers will be compliant with hydrogen
I could really do with a free boiler!
Haha yea same
So what about all the old gas appliances on the grid?
My boiler is 20 years old and makes zero sense to replace it early, even at the current gas prices.
It’s not just about boilers either, that’s just one of the many appliances that are connected to the grid.
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Think ours is old as the house!
Yea I know, I don’t have all the answers but their building a new energy park in the area for the trial to begin in 2024. The homes selected for the trial will be given a boiler and appliances in time for the switch over.
Also they will pay £1000 off the bills over the course of the trial
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Isn’t that the way of things right now though lolSounds like a complete waste of money, publicly funded I guess?
They will start pushing hydrogen more and more, 2025 natural gas boilers are banned in new builds leaving heat pumps or hydrogen to heat the home
Soldato
- Joined
- 23 May 2006
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i dont understand why you would burn hydrogen to heat your home given the ineffiencies of creating it. surely much more sensible to use electricity and cut out the middleman as it were
Hydrogen surely would be better used to replace aviation, train and boat, plane fuel............. and maybe for HGVs
Hydrogen surely would be better used to replace aviation, train and boat, plane fuel............. and maybe for HGVs
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