Energy Supplier can't install an EV Charger

[Firegod]

Hi all

Looking for some clarification and perhaps just santiy check my this please.

I went through the online application process with Ovo, gave them all the pictures and diagrams. We have the main electric meter in the house along with an isolation switch, and a consumer board. The consumer unit has a main 100A fuse. The mains in fuse on the supply is 60A. We have underground armoured cable going from the electricity meter to power the shed. In the shed is a new consumer unit, meeting the 18th Edition Amendment 2 specs. It has a 100A main fuse with 4 x Type B RCBOs (1 x 6A, 1 x 16A, 1 x 32A & 1 x 40A). We want the EV charger installed on the side of the shed, connected back to the 40A RCBO. Will take 2-3m of cable to attach it up. Sadly, Ovo won't do this and can only install the EV Charger routing back to the main consumer unit in the house. Which to me seems odd.

Nevertheless, I plan to go ahead and buy the same compatible charger which I was going to get through Ovo (Hypervolt 3 model) so that I can use it with their cheaper EV tarrif. I'll obviously need a 3rd party electrician to come and install it. Is that acceptable? Would any electrician be able to do this or do I need a specialist?

The person I spoke with at Ovo said that the installer then contacts the DNO and does a "connect and notify" (is that the correct terminology?) to tell them about the charger. I asked what happens with the 60A main fuse, and they said the main consumer unit in the house didn't look too busy and so 60A would probably be fine but that the installer could "clamp the charger to a 60A limit". Is that something installers do and would know about?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Firegod]

I think the issue is your asking a big box installer to do an installation that is not ‘normal’. You may be better off using a local electrician, however most EV charger manufacturers want you to use someone off their list who has done their training.

Whether you can attach a charger to the remote consumer unit is how big that armoured cable is. It should also have some kind of fuse and RCD at the meter end.

Your 60A main fuse may be a problem. It’s not about how many circuits you have in a consumer unit, it’s what it attached to those circuits. An electrician will need to do a maximum load test to make sure you don’t blow the 60A cut out. The DNO is likely to want to upgrade it.

Many chargers, including the hypervolt can be configured with an ‘adaptive fuse’ so they ramp down if the total load is approaching the 60A limit. However this needs a hardwired CT clamp and is usually ran in external CAT5/6 cable. The DNO may mandate this if you are on a looped supply which is likely if it’s only 60A. Other chargers offer wireless CTs (Zappi comes to mind).

Your focused on Ovo, have you considered another supplier that may offer a better tariff for your needs? That may also change the charge point you want to use. Ovo only gives you cheap electricity for your car where as someone like Octopus gives you cheap electric for your whole house when the car is charging. Rates might look higher but you only need to load shift a surprisingly small amount of usage into the cheap period to be better off.

Thanks. Just been reading about the ALM and CT setup on the Hypervolt. I guess it will make sense to an installer... The cat6 ethernet cable confused me! Is that just inside the unit?

I'm happy for them to do a load test and check etc but I only have one cable into the main fuse. Our property was overhauled about 20 years ago so we got rid of the loop. Probably why the fuse is 60A!

The cable to the shed is thicker than the one into the main property.

Yeah I like Ovo and just getting their smart meter as well to use with the anytime EV tarrif so will most likely stay with them.

 

[Firegod]

Hi all thanks for the comments. I'll do my best to reply, sorry if I miss any. I've just gone ahead with a quote through Smart Home Charge. It was nice to be able to upload a video walk through and explain as I went along. I have said that if we can't do the shed, then on the outside of the main property would be the fallback plan (i.e. normal fitment). See what comes of it.

We started work changing over the consumer unit in the shed today regardless (as it needs doing). So managed to get some pics of stuff.

Here is how the shed is fed from the main consumer unit:

Here is the full consumer unit in the house with a spare space for a 32A or 40A RCBO:

Single phase, 60A mains fuse with isolation switch:

And here is the shed sub consumer unit (current fitted one and replacement one both pictured):

Hope this is interesting or useful for some.

Cheers.

 

[Firegod]

And sorry, the mains cable in the shed. Forgot to show what that looks like more closely.

 

[Firegod]

Just bought a 100A Isolator Switch as well so that the shed can be safely disconnected from the mains supply instead of having to knock the house off. May as well get that fitted same time as the new unit in the shed!

 

[Firegod]

Is that armoured just stuffed in with the main tails? That’s ropy as ****, no offence intended if you installed it, it’s just not to code, and dangerous.

That armoured cable should be protected by an MCB/RCD or RCBO upstream at the house end. If it’s cut between the CU and the shed, you’ll have a dead short with no protection and a fire.

Either way, that cable isn’t thick enough to run a charger and the existing loads at the shed.

Call an electrician would be my advice.

Had my neighbour pop round to take a look - he is an electrician. He said that it wasn't ropy doing it that way (and no I didn't do the install lol). He thinks it would potentially be OK to run the EV from the shed over that cable. But he said that the installer will come out and take a look and yeah, if shed is no good because of the cable or what have you, then we'll just fit it on the house. The armoured cable did have an RCD at the shed end if that helps and the cable was double earthed. Anyway I am certainly no expert but nice to be told that there are options at least.

You don't want an isolator. You need to provide over current protection for that SWA, it can't be in with the tails like that! (even if it was 25mm that would be no good) So you ideally need a switchfuse, or if you are prepared to have a lack of discrimination, a separate small consumer unit with a 40A/45A MCB (You'd need to split the tails with henleys to feed the new unit)

I can't properly get a handle on the size of the SWA, but its looking like its 6mm 3C (does it say the size on the sheath?)

Yeah my neighbour thinks it is 6mm as well.

 

[Firegod]

6mm is thick enough to run a charger but you’ll not have the head room for any other loads.

I’m afraid I disagree with your electrician friend, that is ropy.

That cable has no suitable over current protection upstream. The only thing protecting it is the DNO cut out fuse.

Also stuffing a 6mm cable in with a 16/25mm cable is just asking for a fire created by a poor connection, particularly if you are putting an EV charger on it.

Neither is acceptable IMO.

Cheers. Yeah the dno fuse is the only thing. I'll see what the installer comes back with.

 

[Firegod]

Thanks all been reading about the Henley blocks and what not. Think I'll try and return that new consumer unit in shed. If the 6mm cable needs a 40/45a mcb then this one has a 100a mains fuse. That's a bit silly!

Quick question. If we split with the Henley blocks, obviously the live neutral out to the shed where the new isolator and unit is fitted, will be the 6mm cable. Will that go into the block OK?

 

[Firegod]

Appreciate all the help on this.

I mocked up a diagram. I should have the shed squared away in a few days (as shown below). After that, would the rest of the diagram be acceptable (ignoring ev charger for now I'm just would like to get the shed correctly sorted). So in my head from what i've been told so far....

Thanks again.

 

[Firegod]

I've popped on checkatrade to get some people out, but the diagram was born from the one shown here - https://learntechnique.com/technical-guide-henley-blocks-isolation - the one titled "suitable layout".

Like I say, I'm not an electrician but I do like to try and understand these things. And no I certainly wouldn't be fiddling with this. I'm fine with fitting a consumer unit, wiring lights and sockets. I will admit it is hard, a lot of the lingo being used is confusing, as are some of the comments. I have Adam_151 saying in one post that a separate small consumer unit with a 40A/45A MCB (You'd need to split the tails with henleys to feed the new unit) and b0rn2sk8 saying Is that armoured just stuffed in with the main tails? That’s ropy as ****, no offence intended if you installed it, it’s just not to code, and dangerous. But now, the 6mm of the henley blocks is no improvement over it dogged in the main switch. So....

I'll proceed to get some advice from electricians and go with what they suggest. Happy days.

Thanks again.

 

[Firegod]

And now I have one electrician messaging me saying a 40A breaker is too high for 6mm and needs to be 32A. Seems to be pot luck on who you ask. According to the internet 6mm armoured cable in the ground (3-core) is rated 44A.

40A maximum for 6MM.

 

[Firegod]

It depends, the current carrying capacity of a cable depends on the scenario in which it is deployed. If its in an insulated wall, that is correct its under 40A so you need a 32A breaker. If its clipped direct, it's higher and you can use a 40A breaker. Usually armoured cabled are used externally and its going out to a shed, I assumed it wasn't in an insulated wall for any material length. To note my post also says maximum, that didn't mean it couldn't be less.

You are doing the right thing getting someone in by the way - as much as it hurts the wallet.

Yeah not in any insulated walls. Just in ground. Edited last post, it should be good for 44A.

 

[Firegod]

Shed all sorted.

I think reading back this is what you guys were saying would be the way to do it on the main consumer unit; just move it to the spare way and fit with a 40A fuse.

I also showed him the stuff in the shed and he was happy with what we have in there, he said probably way overkill, but absolutely nothing wrong with it at all.

Happy days!

 

[Firegod]

You got that sorted quickly!

Good stuff and thats exactly what I had in mind with my suggestions to fix it. The shed end looked all good, it was always the CU end that was the issue.


Have you managed to find someone to install the EV charger yet?

Cheers.

Yeah I couldn't believe it when he text yesterday saying he'd come take a look today! Had a good chat about it all. And yeah he managed to source a suitable schneider replacement for the old square d unit. Came straight back and did it within the hour.

Yes aye, EV charger is being done by Smart Home Charge. Seem to get good reviews. The unit and other bits arrived today via dpd. And they notified the dno yesterday. All seems to be progressing nicely.

 

[Firegod]

Had a slight issue with the smart meter install though. Not enough space. Got some new flame retardant meter board which arrived today from cef electrical. Gonna fit that in the cupboard so that we can get the bloke back out to try again. New unit is much bigger.

 

[Firegod]

I’ve not used them before but I’ve heard good things.

Are they sticking it on your house or out in the shed?

It'll just be on the house.

 

[Firegod]

so - evidently enough slack to put the armoured cable into the spare right position on cu -
can we be nosy on the electrician cost for that and ev charger install ?

Yeah thankfully had enough slack on it.

I don't mind, sure. To fix the shed issue this morning was £110. The EV charger with install, I paid ~£1,200 (I opted for the longer 8m cable as well on the charger). Is that bad?

I do wonder what happens if they arrive and there is less work required than initially quoted, do you get a rebate?

 

[Firegod]

Not usually, sounds like a standard install price as putting it on the house near to the existing supply will be a standard install. They’ll install a small consumer unit for the charger and not touch your existing installation.

Whether you need 3m of cable or 10m, it doesn’t really change the amount of work needed or the cost of materials.

Brill thanks

 

[Firegod]

Fun and games contine with this sadly. Been waiting a month now. Last 2 weeks have been Smart Home Charge chasing various engineers for me, to get them out to fit the kit. None have contacted me. Sounds like they must sub-contract out to local engineers. Smart Home Charge have apologised and yesterday I told them to cancel it and give me a refund. DPD picked up the kit today, so hopefully will get a refund once that is back with them. Reached out to Ovo in the meantime for a second time, saying as the shed isn't being used for the charger (just putting it on side of house). They're now being funny about earths. Asked for picture of the earthing rod for the mains. I told them it is under where the kitchen is, they can happily come and pay me to dig it up for proof. Then the same on the water mains. Sadly, behind built in kitchen units. You can just make out the green/yellow earth cable through a small hole. Hopefully my word is good enough. That's the best I can send them. And then the gas meter. It has no earth. It has a yellow warning card inside. Why do they need to know if the gas meter has an earth bonding for an EV Charger install? Anyway, I'm not holding out much hope that they'll do it either. Pretty sick at this point about getting an EV to be honest. If Ovo do say no, I'll get the bloke who sorted out the shed issue as he said he fits them all the time. Probably be cheaper as well!

 

[Firegod]

Sounds like fun and games.

They shouldn’t touch the install if bonding isn’t in place or should be rectified as part of the install. I don’t think it’s an EV charger thing, it’s a general regs thing. In theory that should be the case for anyone who touches the installation.

Is your incoming water pipe plastic? If so, no bonding is required but the gas will be metal and therefore must be bonded.

Presumably they are asking because the earth arrangement at your house requires an earth rod? But more importantly, why is your earth rod under your kitchen floor?

It should have been moved if an extension was put on, it’s not like they are expensive either. I’d expect that would also be classed as a fault also if it can’t be seen or tested so it will be assumed it isn’t there.

Both those two issues are likely to result in a failed EICR if you were to have one.

That combined with the proper dodgy cable going to the shed, whoever worked on that property before was ‘not great’.

Do you have the certificates from when it was put in?

Yep super happy fun time! Yeah water pipe is plastic, which I've also told them. So if the gas needs bonded, I'm assuming just another ear rod?

Yeah they said "as I appear to have a TT mains supply". No idea what that means.

Hah that'll be the "electrician" that put it there many many many years ago now when the whole place was being revamped. I don't have any certs but my parents might have some (somewhere!).

how come you went for 'smart home charge' at all ? versus asking your 'shed bloke' to continue the work or returning to OVO after shed guy had qualified shed.

So yeah, I have gone back to Ovo now, since sorting the shed fiasco. Smart Home Charge yeah - cancelled them. To be fair, thinking on it some more, Ovo should (if they do want to go ahead) send a quote for the work, as the next step. I'll wait and see what that is, then I'll get the sparky back out regardless and get him to give me a price. Just having someone here to point at stuff and explain I prefer. Having to do the submission process for Ovo via the app with just pics that you can't really explain is not ideal. Rather do face to face.