Engine timing question

ganesh · 11 Apr 2011 at 20:32

Hello chaps,

How obvious would it be if i had got the timing wrong on my car?
(1999 clio, 1.4 8v engine)

I replaced the belts and pump last weekend, it started up fine afterwards and there were no unusual noises, but it didn't sound quite as smooth as i remember. Doubt is now creeping into my mind that i may have cocked up the timing (though i followed haynes precisely, set TDC and lined up belt correctly), it has not been driven, just started a couple of times. I spoke to a mechanic and he said it might not be all that obvious if i had only got it a little bit wrong, but with disastrous repercussions.

I can't check the belt now as i did something very silly (removed tensioner and lost belt position).

23JMZ07 · 11 Apr 2011 at 20:36

Its very hard to put the belt back on in a different position. As long as the marks are all lined up then you can't really go wrong.

Its probably fine but just drive it for a bit, you will soon see if its not right.

ganesh · 11 Apr 2011 at 20:41

23JMZ07 said:
Its very hard to put the belt back on in a different position. As long as the marks are all lined up then you can't really go wrong.

Its probably fine but just drive it for a bit, you will soon see if its not right.

I wish i could, but i did something very silly. Removed the tensioner and lost the belt position and then accidentally moved the camshaft sprocket independently, so it's currently sitting outside with no belts on while i figure out what to do.

23JMZ07 · 11 Apr 2011 at 20:47

The cam sprocket should have a mark on it to line up with a mark on the block?

ganesh · 11 Apr 2011 at 20:49

23JMZ07 said:
The cam sprocket should have a mark on it to line up with a mark on the block?

Is it as simple as just rotating it back around to the TDC mark? and the same for the crankshaft sprocket? I thought that moving it on it's own would mess things up royally.

InvaderGIR · 11 Apr 2011 at 20:49

There will be locating pins/holes on the crank and the cam sprockets, you'll need to make sure they are lined up correctly and ideally locked into place, then you can put the belt on and it'll be reet.

Haynes should give you more information and some pictures of them. I have some pictures from when I put a 205 GTI engine back together, but they are on the pc.

Just found this on hosting, shall find proper pics in a bit..

Bottom left is a drill bit being used to keep the cam sprocket in position.

ganesh said:
Is it as simple as just rotating it back around to the TDC mark? and the same for the crankshaft sprocket? I thought that moving it on it's own would mess things up royally.

I had to redo the timing completely on the above engine. Set what I thought was TDC on the crank and on the head with the head off, and got it wrong but not enough to worry about it, so I was able to move them to the correct positions without fouling the valves on the pistons.

InvaderGIR · 11 Apr 2011 at 21:01

Here we go...

That is how I set it out of the car, but I had to reset it whilst in the car as I had it wrong. But the point is, you should have locating marks/holes such as I used.

And whilst engine in position:
Crank:

Cam:

Minimal amount of space to work with the engine in there, but it is easily enough doable.

Lopéz · 11 Apr 2011 at 21:05

InvaderGIR said:
There will be locating pins/holes on the crank and the cam sprockets, you'll need to make sure they are lined up correctly and ideally locked into place, then you can put the belt on and it'll be reet.

Not always any locking holes. Not so bad on the crank but can a pain in the ass on the cam if you knock it.

InvaderGIR · 11 Apr 2011 at 21:08

I figured, French being French they should be similar.

But they are different engines, and without seeing it, can't tell for sure.

Can't find any decent images of the E7J engine that shows cam sprockets.

Clarkey · 11 Apr 2011 at 21:19

There aren't on this engine, just timing marks on the sprockets and block/head.

InvaderGIR · 11 Apr 2011 at 21:22

Clarkey said:
There aren't on this engine, just timing marks on the sprockets and block/head.

Certainly enough to go on to line the sprockets up though...which is certainly the main point I was trying to make, rather than there being nothing to line them up.

So OP shouldn't have managed to destroy his engine just yet.

Biohazard · 11 Apr 2011 at 21:30

What clarkey says ish, energy engines have timing marks on the crank sprocket and front oil seal cover, the belt should have timing bands (two marker lines) and the other line should be set with the mark on the cam sprocket.

Take the lower and upper cam belt cover off to look.

ganesh · 11 Apr 2011 at 22:39

Ok, perhaps things aren't as bad as i thought. I'll have another crack at it this weekend, Biohazard is correct with regard to timing marks.

Thanks very much chaps, you've given me confidence in my amateur spannering.

Biohazard · 11 Apr 2011 at 23:27

Just have the covers off and check although I'd be suprised.

You take anything else off while you were at it?

I like the lumps reliable and can be seen to go beyond 200k. Easy to work on as well, you can get to pretty much everything in situ.

I had one a few years ago with extensive headwork in a phase one clio 3dr, gave a sluggish idle but it was very nippy for what it was.

ganesh · 12 Apr 2011 at 21:11

Biohazard said:
Just have the covers off and check although I'd be suprised.

You take anything else off while you were at it?

I like the lumps reliable and can be seen to go beyond 200k. Easy to work on as well, you can get to pretty much everything in situ.

I had one a few years ago with extensive headwork in a phase one clio 3dr, gave a sluggish idle but it was very nippy for what it was.

At the moment it's just the cambelt and alternator belt that are off, i've already replaced the water pump and also the rocker cover gasket. I agree, access is pretty good and being single cam you don't have to worry about cam locking tools or TDC pins.

dalin80 · 13 Apr 2011 at 08:02

The fun ones are the engines with free-wheeling cam and crank pulleys.

ganesh · 16 Apr 2011 at 14:11

Ok, so it's round two, i've put the belt on and lined it up correctly. But when i turn the engine round by hand it seems to consistently be out by two teeth, i really don't understand this. It's the right belt with the correct amount of teeth and i position the marks on the belt over the tdc marks on both sprockets, but when spinning it back round again the lines on the belt end up two teeth away from the TDC marks.

Any ideas?

InvaderGIR · 16 Apr 2011 at 14:13

Correct tension?

ganesh · 16 Apr 2011 at 14:40

Certainly feels tight enough, am just using the manual method though and twisting it between fingers. Am pretty sick of this car now, am tempted to just leave the belt as it is and see how it runs.

InvaderGIR · 16 Apr 2011 at 14:44

Twisting between fingers?

I don't know how the engine tensions the belt so can't be brilliantly helpful unfortunately (so don't know if it is a spring loaded tensioner or a manual one). Usually though my understanding to check tension is to make it tight then on a long side of the belt, push it and see how far it flexes. most belts iirc should only flex a small amount, like up to 1cm...but I may be wrong.