Engineers/Engineering

Haircut · 3 Nov 2011 at 15:01

alx said:
I know you're first comment is said in jest, but I found at school that whilst maths/physics/chemistry teachers would push science and their own subjects, when it came to picking an engineering subject at university they were of very little help.

Same with me. I was good at maths and physics at school so ended up doing a degree in mathematical physics.
Never really even considered any sort of engineering as an option.
I've actually ended up being a software developer now, and even though I used to write programs myself back then I never really considered computer science either. It was all just about carrying on with one of the subjects I did at A-Level.

alx · 3 Nov 2011 at 15:05

Haircut said:
Same with me. I was good at maths and physics at school so ended up doing a degree in mathematical physics.
Never really even considered any sort of engineering as an option.
I've actually ended up being a software developer now, and even though I used to write programs myself back then I never really considered computer science either. It was all just about carrying on with one of the subjects I did at A-Level.

Is a difficult situation. If none of the teachers at school have an engineering background (which is usually the case) then what can you do? Make it a requirement for them to tell kids about engineering even though they have little to no knowledge of it? Difficult situation.

Sunbed · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:01

Delvis said:
Erm, no...Theres lack of graduates because people obviously don't want to be doing them...

... because engineering isn't cool anymore :rolleyes:

The difficultly of the degree comment you made I think is partly correct, but remember there is no shortage of people wanting to be doctors or vets (difficult degrees!).

I think the teaching of maths (needs more mechanics earlier), proper IT (i.e. not just spreadsheets training) and careers is lacking in schools.

Delvis · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:09

Sundance said:
... because engineering isn't cool anymore

The difficultly of the degree comment you made I think is partly correct, but remember there is no shortage of people wanting to be doctors or vets (difficult degrees!).

I think the teaching of maths (needs more mechanics earlier), proper IT (i.e. not just spreadsheets training) and careers is lacking in schools.

Never said it wasn't cool, nothing is 'cool' anymore.

Aware of the people wanting to be docs / vets etc, as my O/H wants to be a Vet.

Our school does 'Proper IT' at higher levels, programming etc

Sunbed · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:22

Delvis said:
Our school does 'Proper IT' at higher levels, programming etc

This is good. I remember at high school all IT was basically just teaching people how to be secretaries. I feel like I missed out on a decent grounding into computing, communications etc. All my (limited) computer knowledge has been self taught really :/

Macky · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:31

I'm currently doing Maths, Further Maths, Physics and chemistry at AS level. Would dropping further maths at A2 be a bad idea and nullify my chances of getting to do MEng at uni or a similar degree course? I should be able to get an A in maths, possibly an A in physics, B in chemistry and be lucky if I got a B in further maths. What do you guys think? Are physics and maths the main ones they look for?

Sunbed · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:41

Macky said:
I'm currently doing Maths, Further Maths, Physics and chemistry at AS level. Would dropping further maths at A2 be a bad idea and nullify my chances of getting to do MEng at uni or a similar degree course? I should be able to get an A in maths, possibly an A in physics, B in chemistry and be lucky if I got a B in further maths. What do you guys think? Are physics and maths the main ones they look for?

If you are someone who doesn't struggle in further maths then you have nothing to worry about (I imagine - I didn't do further maths, just going on what other people on course said). 1st year of most engineering courses include a refresher of A level maths and some further maths.

A level maths and physics are the important ones. The third one I'd say do the one you enjoy most

Further maths would defo have boiled my brain a bit thinking back - I did chemistry.

Zefan · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:42

I'm an engineer.

The only qualifications I possess are my hard hat and tool box, yet I manage to run across battlefields and take over enemy buildings by simply stepping into them.

RomanNose · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:43

Macky said:
I'm currently doing Maths, Further Maths, Physics and chemistry at AS level. Would dropping further maths at A2 be a bad idea and nullify my chances of getting to do MEng at uni or a similar degree course? I should be able to get an A in maths, possibly an A in physics, B in chemistry and be lucky if I got a B in further maths. What do you guys think? Are physics and maths the main ones they look for?

You have all the chance in the world of doing an MEng without further maths, infact I just got an offer without it. Physics will kill you though, it becomes very hard near the end of AS and into A2 it only gets harder.
There is just so much material, I have nearly finished my lessons for January exams in Maths & Electronics but I am only halfway in Physics.

alx · 3 Nov 2011 at 16:47

-Ad- said:
I shall have your job Nick when you leave

I have to say that many people in here who arn't Engineers (I'm talking about those defending the title) do seem to think that an Engineer 'Designs stuff', that isn't completely true. I have hardly ever done detailed design in the working world (except when as a Building Services Mechanical Engineer), with most of my designs/projects being conceptual with a little detail design before passing it onto a CAD Tech to draw up or for a specific Mechanical Designer/Engineer to do the main design drawings and speccing up the generic components etc.

Does that not make me an Engineer in some peoples eyes or do they truly not understand what an Engineer can be and the variety of the job

Very true. When I was a process engineer there wasn't much design at all unless a minor modification was made. It was mainly optimisation stuff but still very much an engineering role. Often lots of problem solving/troubleshooting/minor inovation required when things went wrong.

-Ad- · 3 Nov 2011 at 20:04

Out engineering beer into stomach this eve.

Not proving that hard for a few real Engineers.

OpenToSuggestions · 4 Nov 2011 at 16:38

A friend of mine graduated in some crap (marketing psychology I think) and started off as an 'account executive', at a small backstreet firm on £12,000 salary.

DB_SamX · 4 Nov 2011 at 16:59

Ricochet J said:
The problem with engineering in this country is that the title is unregulated. I know I've stated the problem, but is it really that obvious? You have a host of bodies such as the IMechE (which is what I'm registered to), IChemE, IStructE, IET, INucE etc. Unfortunately these bodies have little influence over who can be called an engineer. Pressure should be mounted on the Engineering Council UK, and on the government.

It's rich because the government loves to encourage kids to study STEM subjects in college, university and through apprenticeships, in order to cover the skills gap. How can people take engineering seriously if the IT man can call himself an engineer?

Unfortunately I think the only way engineers will get recognition are through a series of strikes.

Edit: To add to my post. I think more should be done to educate kids. I'll give you an example - I'm a STEM ambassador. I went into a school in London to run some STEM activities. I asked a class of year 11's "Who knows what an engineer does?" A few of the replies were "someone who fixes a car in a garage".

ANother fellow STEM ambassador. \o/

And my sentiments exactly, as I posted a couple of pages earlier, although I'm not sure on the strikes. It would have to be a last resort.

Or kids. I have yet to go to a school to talk to students about Civil/Structural engineering where they haven't asked me if engineers fix cars and kitchen appliances. Proper facepalm moment sadly.

UK-AL05 · 4 Nov 2011 at 17:57

mglover070588 said:
A friend of mine graduated in some crap (marketing psychology I think) and started off as an 'account executive', at a small backstreet firm on £12,000 salary.

It's been like that for ages though. Marketing executives, account executive, sales executives...

All those types always have executive in their name. Annoyingly they get quite far in the long term, since their the guys that bring in the sales.

Xelene · 4 Nov 2011 at 19:03

tl;dr all of it.

There are people that work in Computing that are Engineers. Software Engineering and Systems Engineering are both rigorous fields that involve designing and implementing large complex projects with multiple internal and external interfaces, overall structure to a certain budget and accepted level of fault tolerance.

Bizarrely, IT steals another professional job title to mean something else; the Architect - who is normally a hybrid Engineer / Business Analyst / Project Manager.

Narj · 4 Nov 2011 at 19:34

I have to come up with the plans and configurations to make stuff work from a high level design, and also come up with solutions/ways of working around problems and fixing stuff, so I suppose that sort of comes into "engineering", but I just call myself an Analyst/technician. Ho hum.

D.P. · 4 Nov 2011 at 19:40

sldsmkd said:
tl;dr all of it.

There are people that work in Computing that are Engineers. Software Engineering and Systems Engineering are both rigorous fields that involve designing and implementing large complex projects with multiple internal and external interfaces, overall structure to a certain budget and accepted level of fault tolerance.

Bizarrely, IT steals another professional job title to mean something else; the Architect - who is normally a hybrid Engineer / Business Analyst / Project Manager.

There are software engineers in the true sense of engineers, but they are mostly called senior software engineers, project leaders, etc.

Many software engineers aren't engineers but are software developers or programmers, etc. but I don't care about the slight misuse here.

Calling a technician an engineer is just absurd though, why stop there, why not call them a doctor, professor, etc.? "Telephone repair doctor" Professor of washing machine repair", "IT Judge"

Xelene · 8 Nov 2011 at 22:54

D.P. said:
There are software engineers in the true sense of engineers, but they are mostly called senior software engineers, project leaders, etc.

Many software engineers aren't engineers but are software developers or programmers, etc. but I don't care about the slight misuse here.

Calling a technician an engineer is just absurd though, why stop there, why not call them a doctor, professor, etc.? "Telephone repair doctor" Professor of washing machine repair", "IT Judge"

The distinction really is a developer writes small pieces of code (functions / objects) with defined inputs and outputs to spec - it's equivalent to a technician. An engineer designs and oversees complex systems comprised of a multitude of objects / components. The distinction is clearer in operations where you have operators and admins performing the technician work and systems engineers and architects performing the engineering work. Software is a bit fuzzier, but it's usually a lead developer or architect doing the engineering work.

BlackDragon · 9 Nov 2011 at 00:12

I'm a software engineer, with a degree in computing. I believe that the title is correct, as I am involved in all aspects of software development rather than just focusing on the writing of the code.

I do think that the title is overused and has lost some of its value. Like the 'engineers' at Virgin Media who have been trying to fix a fault in my area for 6 months...

UK-AL05 · 9 Nov 2011 at 00:41

sldsmkd said:
The distinction really is a developer writes small pieces of code (functions / objects) with defined inputs and outputs to spec - it's equivalent to a technician. An engineer designs and oversees complex systems comprised of a multitude of objects / components. The distinction is clearer in operations where you have operators and admins performing the technician work and systems engineers and architects performing the engineering work. Software is a bit fuzzier, but it's usually a lead developer or architect doing the engineering work.

I don't think that metaphor really works. Engineers are highly knowledgable in math and physics, which is what separated them from techs.

The difference between a software developer doing the functions, and objects and a lead developer is not knowledge but experience.

Pretty much every developer knows about design patterns, data structures etc so could design in their own right, they just don't have the experience to back it up yet in large systems.

I think software developers should be called software developers, not engineers. But be reconised as the equivalent of an engineer when it comes to computers.

Perhaps software needs a CSft or something like that.