England's young people near bottom of global league table for basic skills

[aardvark]

hardly surprising as people have said - rarely do i meet a young person who isn't an idiot.

 

[Raumarik]

Hardly shocking - we have large class sizes with low amounts of teachers. The teachers that are there are not as valued in society as in the higher performing countries. You reap what you sow. And we've sowed a desire to raise everyone to mediocrity - underperform and your school will give you 1 to 1 tuition to raise the bar to something you may never need to achieve - but shine just shine with talent and they'll leave you to get on, by yourself, safe in the knowledge you'll meet the targets that measure success because they are not judged on what you could achieve but how they want to tell the population you have achieved.

Agree with the exception of teachers not being valued, I think they are and many people would never want to attempt their job, but it's the lack of discipline that causes that, teachers don't seem to impose it as they don't appear to have the backing or power to do so. That's a failing of the society as a whole, but it's somehow landed mostly on teachers, most of whom probably want that power back.

Along with the belt

 

[Cosimo]

I'm not surprised, some of the people in my school.....the better not breed

They'll be at it like rabbits.

 

[deuse]

Couldn't agree more! My dad came to this country from India with £11 couldn't speak english and worked in a laundry for five years. Stereotypically enough he bought a convenience store one he saved. Generated enough income to put both his sons through private school and give us a leg up buy buying half a house each with us two paying the rest of the mortgage since we were 18 so we could learn about money. I got into pharmacy myself with my dad always encouraging us to get into well paid vocational professions.

Meanwhile the dolers on the estate call us pakis and are jealous of my fathers success. All whilst having access to the same resources my dad had.

Your mom and dad did very well and good luck to them. But I wonder what would have happened if they stayed in India? bet it makes you feel lucky to be here.

Class size in the UK is just silly it should be no more then 15-20 a class.

 

[atpbx]

Education, education, education.

 

[dacads]

u wot m8

 

[SMN]

Sod 'em, more work for me

 

[Cosimo]

u wot m8

You'll go far with your English....

 

[dacads]

You'll go far with your English....

Been there, done that. You failed to detect the sarcasm

 

[elmarko]

Stop using education as a political football & accept that times have changes & trying to return to "traditional values" is only deemed to further exasperate the problem.

Attempt to utilise existing studies (or begin new ones) to find an evidenced based method of achieving whatever goals they set.

Would be a start...

but it's the lack of discipline that causes that, teachers don't seem to impose it as they don't appear to have the backing or power to do so. That's a failing of the society as a whole, but it's somehow landed mostly on teachers, most of whom probably want that power back.

Along with the belt

As above, if you can display any evidence which shows that corporal punishment improves childhood behaviour then I'd be interested to see it - if anything the evidence seems to suggest that by using violence as a tool at a young age you effectively teach child to use violence in later life.

Contrary to popular belief, violent crime was more prevalent in the history of the UK (when we still had corporal punishment).

 

[MrMarvelous]

You'll go far with your English....

crful, he'll reck u m8

 

[doodah]

I have complete faith in Michael Gove to fix this!!!!

 

[RDM]

Stop using education as a political football & accept that times have changes & trying to return to "traditional values" is only deemed to further exasperate the problem.

Education is always going to be political because it is a public service paid for by taxation, is an ideal starting base for social engineering and is heavily politicised at the teacher training institutions and by the teaching unions.

 

[elmarko]

Education is always going to be political because it is a public service paid for by taxation, is an ideal starting base for social engineering and is heavily politicised at the teacher training institutions and by the teaching unions.

Being political doesn't necessarily mean it has to be used as a football in it's current fashion.

A strong emphasis on evidence based policy would help alleviate the worst meddling we have seen in recent years.

Stating indented goals, measures for success, studies which provide supporting evidence, trail runs with control groups - pretty much the only way of determining the truth value of a given claim, this stuff should not be bound by any specific ideology - I'd hope the left & right of our political spectrum would want to use methods which actually work.

Not that this should be specific to just education, it should be a system wide method for all departments of government.

I'm still shocked how resistant even huge corporations are to the scientific method of problem solving in favour of fluff & assumption - I work heavily in trying to influence corporate policy & I'm forever banging my head against a wall of ignorance of the value of testing, evidence & data.

I wouldn't mind but the company I work for has a turnover in the billions.

 

[RDM]

Being political doesn't necessarily mean it has to be used as a football in it's current fashion.

A strong emphasis on evidence based policy would help alleviate the worst meddling we have seen in recent years.

Not that this should be specific to just education, it should be a system wide method for all departments of government.

How is that not in of itself a political ideology? You are wanting to divorce the voting public from any form of influence, in effect a technocracy where "experts" decide what is best. You own ideas are wrapped up in political ideology.

Considering just how poor the level of evidence is in education theory you would struggle to get anything done anyway.

 

[elmarko]

How is that not in of itself a political ideology? You are wanting to divorce the voting public from any form of influence, in effect a technocracy where "experts" decide what is best. You own ideas are wrapped up in political ideology.

Considering just how poor the level of evidence is in education theory you would struggle to get anything done anyway.

It's not an ideology because it's simply doing what works for the intended goal.

The ideology determines the goal, the method uses science to pick the best method to achieve that - the public could still hold power by voting based on the intended goals.

The public seems to have confused methods with goals, it's akin the average person saying "we need to put people in prison for longer!!!" - coming out with a method without considering the goal (or that that method may in-fact not have the intended result - in this case it doesn't reduce recidivism).

If a politician is going to run for a campaign that should have to backup what they say with evidence, as it's the only way of determine the viability of a given proposition - it's pretty much crucial for a functional system.

 

[Irish_Tom]

I see where you're both coming from but I do agree with elmarko.

The biggest single issue in the education system (from top to bottom) is the amount of power given to the Education Secretary.

It's not right that one person (of any political persuasion) can enforce so much change across such a large part of society with complete impunity.

Then, five years later, someone else comes along and does it all over again.

 

["andy"]

stretched budgets

oversized classes

poverty stricken students who's parents are hardly adults themselves. you can't teach people that don't want to be taught. kids look up to their unemployed parents as role models and think ''why bother learning when i can get money for nothing anyway''


hardly surprising

 

[RDM]

It's not an ideology because it's simply doing what works for the intended goal.

The ideology determines the goal, the method uses science to pick the best method to achieve that - the public could still hold power by voting based on the intended goals.

I doubt you would be supporting such a "methodology" if you didn't think it would result in the outcomes your ideology wants.

The public seems to have confused methods with goals, it's akin the average person saying "we need to put people in prison for longer!!!" - coming out with a method without considering the goal (or that that method may in-fact not have the intended result - in this case it doesn't reduce recidivism).

Throw enough people in jail for long enough and it probably would...though not exactly a society I would like to live in.

If a politician is going to run for a campaign that should have to backup what they say with evidence, as it's the only way of determine the viability of a given proposition - it's pretty much crucial for a functional system.

And if the evidence isn't available, is contradictory or the issue is an emotional one?

 

[elmarko]

I doubt you would be supporting such a "methodology" if you didn't think it would result in the outcomes your ideology wants.

Facts do tend to have a liberal bias..

Throw enough people in jail for long enough and it probably would...though not exactly a society I would like to live in.

Indeed, but it may not really impact of the first time offender rates either (just the re-offender rates) - but as you say, not a great society to live in either.

And if the evidence isn't available, is contradictory or the issue is an emotional one?

Then supporting evidence should be providing or nothing should be done - or debated.

I'm not sure what would fit into this criteria mind, a few examples may help me respond (as I'm unsure what a government my try to legislate in, in which evidence can't be obtained) .