Euthanasia need to be considered in UK?

[Mr Jack]

There is already evidence in several countries that there is a culture of pressurising healthy people to consider euthanasia. I find that sufficiently worrying that I don't wish to import it into to the UK.

Could you share this evidence?

It would be foolish to believe that it doesn't ever happen - some people are scum - but I can't find anything that suggests that it is a widespread problem. Certainly, any euthanasia law would need to have safeguards and monitoring in place.

 

[Mr Badger]

Could you share this evidence?

It would be foolish to believe that it doesn't ever happen - some people are scum - but I can't find anything that suggests that it is a widespread problem. Certainly, any euthanasia law would need to have safeguards and monitoring in place.

Seems to be more of an urban myth that always gets deployed when discussing this subject. Clearly you would put in place a robust system involving appropriate healthcare professionals and legal tests to ensure that anyone wanting euthanasia had good medical grounds (such being in the debilitating latter stage of a terminal condition) and was not being pressured into it. Could even make euthanasia coercion a specific offence.

Also, the argument that euthanasia can't be allowed for the already dying in case a comparitively healthy person somehow gets it, does rather ignore that in reality loads of people kill themselves each year anyway. A quick search reveals this from 2018:

"The latest UK suicide figures show that on average just under 6,000 people take their own lives every year. Three-quarters of them are men.

Suicide is the leading cause of death for men under 50."

 

[PlacidCasual]

I hadn't intended to respond further but it is quite rude to accuse people of bad faith posting about such a sensitive matter when examples had already been given.

Picking a few examples given in a recent article on the matter.

Paralympian claims Canada offered to euthanise her when she asked for a stairlift

‘I have a letter saying that if you’re so desperate, madam, we can offer you... medical assistance in dying,’ Christine Gauthier told a Canadian veterans affairs committee

www.independent.co.uk

Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering

Zoraya ter Beek, who has chronic depression, anxiety, trauma and unspecified personality disorder, expected to end her life soon

www.theguardian.com

Another Canadian Forces member alleges Veterans Affairs offered assisted death as 'support'

The soldier had reached out to Veteran Affairs Canada for support for PTSD and alleges he was instead told about medically assisted dying.

nationalpost.com

Canadian doctors accused of pushing medically assisted death on patients: ‘They make you feel less than human’

Hospital patients and their advocates maintain Canada’s Medical Assistance in Dying program is devaluing life.

nypost.com

 

[Mr Jack]

Also, the argument that euthanasia can't be allowed for the already dying in case a comparitively healthy person somehow gets it, does rather ignore that in reality loads of people kill themselves each year anyway. A quick search reveals this from 2018:

"The latest UK suicide figures show that on average just under 6,000 people take their own lives every year. Three-quarters of them are men.

Suicide is the leading cause of death for men under 50."

Evidence from elsewhere suggests that assisted suicide does not reduce the number of other suicides. Not really surprising when you consider the demographics involved.

 

[Mr Badger]

Evidence from elsewhere suggests that assisted suicide does not reduce the number of other suicides. Not really surprising when you consider the demographics involved.

My point is more that plenty of people already kill themselves without the option of assisted suicide. Introducing it would be to help those in specific medical circumstances who want to end their suffering, but might no longer be capable of doing so on their own and for good reasons don't want to drag their friends or family into it

 

[arknor]

Yea, for people like Huwe Edwards.

Evidence from elsewhere suggests that assisted suicide does not reduce the number of other suicides. Not really surprising when you consider the demographics involved.

yea most "accidental" falls from bridges in Newcastle seem to be able bodied young healthy people.

I highly doubt they would have been eligible for assisted suicide even if it were legal.


I really dislike the idea of assisted suicide in this country after what happened with DNR tags during covid.

My trust in the NHS is severely diminished.

 

[hurfdurf]

I hadn't intended to respond further but it is quite rude to accuse people of bad faith posting about such a sensitive matter when examples had already been given.

Picking a few examples given in a recent article on the matter.

Paralympian claims Canada offered to euthanise her when she asked for a stairlift

‘I have a letter saying that if you’re so desperate, madam, we can offer you... medical assistance in dying,’ Christine Gauthier told a Canadian veterans affairs committee

www.independent.co.uk

Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering

Zoraya ter Beek, who has chronic depression, anxiety, trauma and unspecified personality disorder, expected to end her life soon

www.theguardian.com

Another Canadian Forces member alleges Veterans Affairs offered assisted death as 'support'

The soldier had reached out to Veteran Affairs Canada for support for PTSD and alleges he was instead told about medically assisted dying.

nationalpost.com

Canadian doctors accused of pushing medically assisted death on patients: ‘They make you feel less than human’

Hospital patients and their advocates maintain Canada’s Medical Assistance in Dying program is devaluing life.

nypost.com

But you are bad faith posting. Look at the examples you’ve given.

Awful stories from bad faith media outlets reporting on a tiny handful of people have been treated appallingly by staff who will no doubt be fired if they are found out to have done what is claimed, complete outliers, as well as bizarrely including a story that doesn’t back up what you say at all and in fact shows how good assisted dying can be if offered to the right people.

He’s not been rude, you are just that bad of a poster. Do better.

There will always be mistakes in life. A kid will drown in a swimming pool, do we ban swimming pools?

 

[a1ex2001]

Yea, for people like Huwe Edwards.


yea most "accidental" falls from bridges in Newcastle seem to be able bodied young healthy people.

I highly doubt they would have been eligible for assisted suicide even if it were legal.


I really dislike the idea of assisted suicide in this country after what happened with DNR tags during covid.

My trust in the NHS is severely diminished.

I wander how many suicides go unrecorded every year? Anecdotally I know of at least two old people who consciously ended their own lives both were recorded as having died from old age. They both would have had much more dignified and less unpleasant endings had when they decided it was time medical assistance been available.

 

[Mr Jack]

Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering

Zoraya ter Beek, who has chronic depression, anxiety, trauma and unspecified personality disorder, expected to end her life soon

www.theguardian.com

You already posted this upthread, and I asked then what is bad about this case? I ask the same question again.

Picking a few examples given in a recent article on the matter.

These seem to be isolated anecdotes and, I note, anecdotes of people not being pressured into Euthanasia. Two seem to relate to the same case worker working for veteran services who was, according to the first article, fired as a result after suggesting euthanasia to five people. The nurse in the other has obviously behaved appallingly, but again it is a single person. There will be such cases if euthanasia is introduced, just as today there are cases of nurses bullying and abusing the elderly in care homes; but this is just one side of the equation. Right now, tens of thousands of people are subject to months or years of suffering because the law prevents granting them a humane death. That suffering is surely of greater weight than a few incidents of unseemly bullying.

To be convincing to me as a counter-argument, you'd need to have evidence of widespread harassment of the elderly, and of significant numbers of people being pressurised into euthanasia against their real desires. This does not seem to be the case, although it does emphasise the need for safeguards and the enforcement of those safeguards when euthanasia is legalised.

 

[PlacidCasual]

You already posted this upthread, and I asked then what is bad about this case? I ask the same question again.



These seem to be isolated anecdotes and, I note, anecdotes of people not being pressured into Euthanasia. Two seem to relate to the same case worker working for veteran services who was, according to the first article, fired as a result after suggesting euthanasia to five people. The nurse in the other has obviously behaved appallingly, but again it is a single person. There will be such cases if euthanasia is introduced, just as today there are cases of nurses bullying and abusing the elderly in care homes; but this is just one side of the equation. Right now, tens of thousands of people are subject to months or years of suffering because the law prevents granting them a humane death. That suffering is surely of greater weight than a few incidents of unseemly bullying.

To be convincing to me as a counter-argument, you'd need to have evidence of widespread harassment of the elderly, and of significant numbers of people being pressurised into euthanasia against their real desires. This does not seem to be the case, although it does emphasise the need for safeguards and the enforcement of those safeguards when euthanasia is legalised.

I'm not trying to reach your threshold of proof to change your mind. I'm happy to accept your decision on conscience. Apparently because I have a different view on a matter of conscience I have to meet an unreasonable expectation of changing everyone else mind and feeding them proof of why I have my view. I haven't arrived at my view overnight but neither have I spent years pulling together evidence for the explicit purpose of changing other peoples mind.

We have a typical modern argument, one side is happy to accept that normal people come to different conclusions based on personal outlook and evidence and the other side thinks that view is illegitimate and arrived at because they're a terrible person.

 

[I kill Bunnies]

When I go around to my parents for Sunday dinner I often threaten to put my Mum in a home when dinner is late. It would be nice to have the euthanasia option in the pocket too.

 

[Mr Jack]

We have a typical modern argument, one side is happy to accept that normal people come to different conclusions based on personal outlook and evidence and the other side thinks that view is illegitimate and arrived at because they're a terrible person.

I don't think you, on anyone else, who is opposed to euthanasia is a terrible person because of that view. I am interested to know why you think what you do, but when you're not willing to express those arguments then there is nothing to be gained.

 

[413x]

I have to wonder if those against euthanasia are that way inclined because they have never seen a loved on go through terminal decline?
Them wanting to be let go.. But not being able to because of our weird "life is precious no matter what" culture.

 

[doopydug]

Can anyone explain why there is any resistance to euthanasia - if other countries can do it, surely we can too?

 

[Mr Badger]

Can anyone explain why there is any resistance to euthanasia - if other countries can do it, surely we can too?

From what I have seen there seem to be two schools of opposition:

Religious/cultural beliefs that life is sacred and suicide is wrong regardless of the circumstances.

Paranoia that allowing the terminally ill the chance to end their suffering and go out with some dignity, will somehow lead to wholesale culling of the old and sick and that anyone who goes to the doctor feeling a bit depressed will be sent to the suicide clinic.

 

[413x]

And possibly those of the religious mindset using the paranoia excuse as a guise.

 

[LostCorpse]

From what I have seen there seem to be two schools of opposition:

Religious/cultural beliefs that life is sacred and suicide is wrong regardless of the circumstances.

Paranoia that allowing the terminally ill the chance to end their suffering and go out with some dignity, will somehow lead to wholesale culling of the old and sick and that anyone who goes to the doctor feeling a bit depressed will be sent to the suicide clinic.

you forogt to expand directly to : social pressure to not be a drain on the welfair system of the country.
its implided indirectly but may as wel get it out there in full.

for those with out a good pension it may also be an option, people that couldnt or chose not to prepare for retirement or even people with no dependants and no one to look after them in old age.

 

[Mr Badger]

you forogt to expand directly to : social pressure to not be a drain on the welfair system of the country.
its implided indirectly but may as wel get it out there in full.

for those with out a good pension it may also be an option, people that couldnt or chose not to prepare for retirement or even people with no dependants and no one to look after them in old age.

That's included in the second group.

All of which can be avoided with a robust system that only allows euthanasia where there is a diagnosed terminal condition and appropriate checks are made to ensure the person has thought it through and isn't being coerced.

 

[LostCorpse]

thats a fair comment after reading that group line a 4th time.

and yes assuming a roust system is inplace.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Its 2024 and once again the UK is miles behind other nations that have given its citizens the choice to end their lives on their terms. Dementia runs on one side of my family and if I'm unlucky I want to have the option to end my life when I want safely and legally. I don't give a damn what others might think of my choice, its my life, not theirs.