EV general discussion

m4rmite said:
Don't forget to include the shipping of oil, on its way to/ from refineries, in the ice figures.
Circa 40% oil marine shipping is to move fossil fuel around itself.
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Yep that's included (drilling, refining, shipping, transporting, dispensing etc):

40mpg Petrol:
Making and transporting the fuel: 80g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel : 273g CO2/mile
 
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Simon said:
Just see it all the time. A very intentional fence put up. Often there is a class divide within
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i must be missing something but........ ICE car driver is no more an insult than EV driver is it...... ICE - internal combusion engine, EV Electric vehicle.

there really is no more to it certainly when i use the term.... or is this now some modern offensive term which i am unaware of (genuine question as i have actually put my foot in it before by mistake)
 
bainbridge said:
There's been some lively debate tonight with both the ICE camps and BEV camps both making good points, and some not so good ones.

I'm leaning towards a used PHEV as a bridging car :)
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PHEVs have their place...... but just go in eyes open. We have one so i have some experience of them and have friends with them as well........ if you can mostly run on electric but just want the petrol back up for piece of mind or the odd road trip to some desolate place with limited charging then a PHEV can be a good choice.

if however you are unlikely to charge often or your daily run is way beyond the electric range of your PHEV you can end up with a less efficient car than just choosing a decent petrol car.....

i cant knock our i3. its done what is needed. my wife was initially worried to have both of our cars full EV. now however her mind is put at rest. almost 12 months on we have used under 20 litres of petrol in probably 8000 miles, and she has said next time we replace (hopefully not for years yet) she will be happy to ditch the engine all together. that is where a PHEV shines imo.

mostly short journeys but with the option of a long one into a small village or as a baby step to build confidsence for a future EV.
 
rare said:
Exactly, the idea people are buying a new EV on PCP every three years or so because it’s more sustainable is nonsense. These cars have a massive footprint to manufacture.
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you say that like they are scrapped!......... a few years ago people complained that there were not enough 2nd hand EVs at more affordable prices.... it is those people who insist on new cars every 3 years which are seeding the market with more affordable still great 2nd hand EVs.

that life is not for me. i wear my shoes till they almost fall apart and i tend to drive my cars till they either fail, cost too much to run (or are no longer practical for me)......... but without those new car buyers i would not have been able to get my half price car or my wifes less than half price car.

my car has 52000 miles on the clock... is still close to the range it was when new (its hard to give an exact value but my guess is within 15 miles) and i would bet a significant chunk of change that its emission footprint is already far less than an equivalent petrol or diesel car with those miles on.. and the gap from now on will only grow
 
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blun said:
Of course we do if we're doing a full lifecycle analysis.

Let's assume a Golf / ID3 sized car doing 120k miles over their lives with several owners before they are recycled.

Combustion car @ 40mpg
Manufacturing CO2 - 12,000kg
Fuelling CO2 - 42,360kg

Lifetime emissions = 54,360kg or 450g CO2 per mile

EV @ 3.5 miles/kwh
Manufacturing CO2 - 14,500kg
Fuelling CO2 - 2,640kg
Charging losses (approx 5%) = 132kg

Lifetime emissions = 17,272kg or 143g CO2 per mile

This doesn't include the point that the carbon intensity of the electricity will improve over it's life, reduced servicing needs for the EV (oil etc), and also doesn't include the other emissions from the combustion car that contribute to poor air quality (e.g. CO, NOx etc..)

The EV battery can be reused once it's finished in the car, then ultimately recycled and used in a new vehicle.
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Indeed the number I was expecting. Not 10x before.
 
rare said:
Not really, I just think this model of car buying is even more unsustainable when it comes to EV’s than ICE because of the manufacturing footprint.
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why? i am not saying EVs are "green" but over the life of the vehicle its demonstrably better than ICE vehicles...... whether the car has only had 1 owner when it is scrapped or 6 is irrelevant imo...... its not like the manufacturing footprint is THAT much bigger than an ICE car either - esp as now adays many ICE cars are having batteries added to them in the form of mild hybrids

1 area where i do worry about EVs at the moment, and i believe it is often unnecessary, is otherwise technically repairable cars being written off before they need to be. I am not sure how big a problem this is in reality - and its an issue for all cars not just EVs due to huge repair times and courtesy car costs - but i can see how EVs being killed off (when they are repairable) before their emissions debt is "repaid" could be an issue
 
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bigmike20vt said:
why? i am not saying EVs are "green" but over the life of the vehicle its demonstrably better than ICE vehicles...... whether the car has only had 1 owner when it is scrapped or 6 is irrelevant imo...... its not like the manufacturing footprint is THAT much bigger than an ICE car either - esp as now adays many ICE cars are having batteries added to them in the form of mild hybrids
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Are electric cars cleaner?

Europe’s leading advocates for clean transport & energy
www.transportenvironment.org www.transportenvironment.org
 
Jonnycoupe said:

Are electric cars cleaner?

Europe’s leading advocates for clean transport & energy
www.transportenvironment.org www.transportenvironment.org
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when you look at that graph it makes it clear just how different the technologies are. they are in km as well rather than real distances ( :D ) so the break even is even sooner, and if you change EU electricity to uk, better again!..
 
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blun said:
Yep that's included (drilling, refining, shipping, transporting, dispensing etc):

40mpg Petrol:
Making and transporting the fuel: 80g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel : 273g CO2/mile
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And the spills? :D:eek:

Only j/k

What about the flaring at rigs, that's 1 rabbit hole the oil industry don't include in figures.
 
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rare said:
Not really, I just think this model of car buying is even more unsustainable when it comes to EV’s than ICE because of the manufacturing footprint.
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Why are you so concerned about the additional CO2 output of manufacturing BEVs? You've had it pointed out a number of times now that the additional carbon has a breakeven of less than 18,000 miles (so usually less than three years). Really, what is your problem? EDIT: In fact, the link posted by @Jonnycoupe above shows it as about 18,000km or 11,200mi on more recent figures for EVs and the UK grid. Outstanding.

I think ICEs are unsustainable because of their lifetime carbon output, poisonous fumes, and finite fuel.
 
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throwaway4372 said:
Do phevs use the engine to keep it in working order if you're doing exclusively short trips for a long time?
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mine does... and of the 20 litres of fuel used over the last 8000 miles half of it was burned doing just that.

my wife has literally made 2 journeys where the petrol engine was needed to cover the last 20 miles or so (and realistically she could have charged at cambridge services) the rest of the petrol used was keepign the engine in ok shape
 
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throwaway4372 said:
Do phevs use the engine to keep it in working order if you're doing exclusively short trips for a long time?
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Mine hasn't but it perhaps hasn't been off long enough, I do get a message after a few months about aged fuel please use engine.

squerble said:
Not sure, but I know on quite a few PHEVs the engine is needed for ongoing cabin heat so it will need to be running a lot of the time in the UK.
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Depends on PHEV, my Volvo has an electric HV heater, no need for engine to heat, but certainly the MG HS we looked at once worked that way.

Not sure how bad using the petrol, when my engine has been used it can keep the car warm for a long time using heat from the engine pumping coolant around even when it is off, seems to be a useful heat storage device that rarely used ICE motor, used to do this when parked up waiting for my daughter sometime after coming in off motorway, saving battery for follow on drive.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
really? that is a crap design then as its a hell of an inefficient way to heat a cabin!!!
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It depends on the car in question but it is a bit of a lose lose situation with PHEVs. The heating requirement is the same as a full EV yet the battery is much smaller. So if heating over the length of a journey takes out 15 miles of range that is a "meh" in a 250 mile EV but a "WTF?!" in a 35 mile PHEV.

The KIA I've been looking in to seems a very weird setup where by the car drives under electric only (as it always does by default) but the engine idles to provide heat. Seems odd to me that it doesn't run like it does in sport mode (engine takes priority for moving the car) with the wasted heat being used but I'm sure those boys and girls in South Korea know more about screwing a car together than I do.

bigmike20vt said:
i must be missing something but........ ICE car driver is no more an insult than EV driver is it...... ICE - internal combusion engine, EV Electric vehicle.

there really is no more to it certainly when i use the term.... or is this now some modern offensive term which i am unaware of (genuine question as i have actually put my foot in it before by mistake)
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Context is everything and that was in response to an "I wish ICE drivers would..." type sweeping statement. Like people suddenly have a personality transplant if they plug their car in versus picking up a petrol pump. Its a much better conversation if we think of motorists in the whole rather than sub dividing into daft tribes based on fuel. Especially as many "ICE drivers" are also "EVangelist's" ;)
 
What happened to the Vauxhall Ampera? That seemed like a good solution, I strongly considered one when I bought my Astra but it cost quite a lot more so I didn't bother. Anyone know if there's a car like that now or upcoming?
 
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