Why bother, why not just have a manual ICE car.
EV general discussion
- Thread starter Ricochet J
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Why bother, why not just have a manual ICE car.
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The law requiting contactless payment comes into effect next month, and all cars have the same connector already. Tesla are (ironically) the exception, but their V3 and V4 chargers also have the CCS standard cables so any EV can charge from them.
Yeah tbh these problems have already been sorted
In the past 4.5 years since I had an EV public charging has drastically improved here in N. Ireland and Republic of Ireland and even more so in the rest of the UK.
The law forcing all public rapid chargers over 50kWh must show costs and allow contactless payments is one of the last hurdles to making public charging simpler. Long overdue.
It was never a major hassle to be honest but it did mean you had to mildly plan a trip to ensure you had various charging apps installed to allow connection. Contactless just makes it much more seamless.
Plug in, tap a debit card, go eat.
The law forcing all public rapid chargers over 50kWh must show costs and allow contactless payments is one of the last hurdles to making public charging simpler. Long overdue.
It was never a major hassle to be honest but it did mean you had to mildly plan a trip to ensure you had various charging apps installed to allow connection. Contactless just makes it much more seamless.
Plug in, tap a debit card, go eat.
Another load of guff. An average EV based on average grid days in this country will take less than 18,000 miles to "repay" their higher manufacturing CO2 output. The cars aren't scrapped after three years, they go on to the second-hand market, having already paid off (or even bettered) their early CO2 "burden".
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And all new ones since last year by law have had to have contactless also and many had contactless long before this deadline came into place.
Given how quickly the rapid charger network is growing the rapid charger network is growing, coming across one without contactless is becoming less and less likely every day.
Tesla are not the only ones, nor do they have the best seller, the Nissan Leaf is the best selling car that doesn’t have CCS. The last time Tesla sold a car without CCS in the U.K./Europe was back in 2020.
These cars were all created when there wasn’t a standard in a new emerging market, you can’t really blame the manufacturers for that. There is now a standard so it’s also irrelevant.
Once those cars are sold through, there will not be any more new cars on sale without CCS. Well except perhaps that Toyota/Lexus if that car is still on sale.
Edit: typo
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Soldato
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Our first EV was in 2017, a second hand nissan leaf 24 on PCP that was £145 a month for 3 years and a balloon payment of about £3k. Total was about £8k. Sold it in March this year for £4k. Pretty good I thought.
We're onto a newer leaf with 40kwh battery and also have a bidirectional charger. That's on a 3 year business lease because the market is moving so fast at the moment that it seemed crazy to buy a leaf with chademo (needed this connection for the charger).
The charger itself is an Indra V2H unit, so we have it running on a schedule to charge between 0030 and 0530 when Octopus Go is cheap, the car then powers the house the rest of the time. We use about 20kW a day in the house so there's always at least half the range left (90 miles or so). It's halved our electricity bill and we also get cheap motoring. Win win.
We also run a diesel golf estate (dieselgate era), which we've had since 2017. It's getting quite expensive to run so if anything big goes it'll get scrapped because it's worthless.
EVs aren't for everyone but they are a good fit for some. I don't think we'd want to public charge regularly, but we've always had a driveway to charge on and don't do big miles.
We're onto a newer leaf with 40kwh battery and also have a bidirectional charger. That's on a 3 year business lease because the market is moving so fast at the moment that it seemed crazy to buy a leaf with chademo (needed this connection for the charger).
The charger itself is an Indra V2H unit, so we have it running on a schedule to charge between 0030 and 0530 when Octopus Go is cheap, the car then powers the house the rest of the time. We use about 20kW a day in the house so there's always at least half the range left (90 miles or so). It's halved our electricity bill and we also get cheap motoring. Win win.
We also run a diesel golf estate (dieselgate era), which we've had since 2017. It's getting quite expensive to run so if anything big goes it'll get scrapped because it's worthless.
EVs aren't for everyone but they are a good fit for some. I don't think we'd want to public charge regularly, but we've always had a driveway to charge on and don't do big miles.
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It’s even lower if they are doing the majority of their charging on a green energy tariff.
If the grid is powered by carbon/free hydroelectricity, the catchup period is about six months. If it is charged using pure coal power (doesn’t apply to the UK) electricity sources it takes about four years.
Given that green energy sources provided roughly half the UK energy (and rising). That means a typical EV on UK roads will be carbon neutral in about 12,000 miles. By 2030 the typical EV carbon neutrality will be well under 4,000 - 5,000 miles max.
These “carbon neutral” arguments also ignore the fact that the fuel for the ICE need to be drilled, pumped, refined, shipped, trucked and stored at petrol stations. That process significantly adds to the total pollution of ICE and reduces the carbon neutrality deficit in the EVs favour.
EVs don’t get scrapped after 3 years, only an idiot would think the carbon neutrality argument has merit. In general here in the UK grid an EV will be anything from 1/4th to 1/3rd the total lifetime pollution of a similar ICE. By 2030 it will be less than 1/5th and as low as 1/10th
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Soldato
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My only qualms about EV long drives, is the planning thats required, in the past i would just fill up jump in and head to off to holiday. Now just for my sanity im checking what decent chargers are enroute and alternatives to them if they are busy or out of operation, and looking for chargers at the destination etc, also having to remember to charge to 100% before a big journey rather than the normal 80
. Its one of those things you do as a new EV driver I guess, the benefits, financial,comfort and convenience far out weigh the initial headaches.
. Its one of those things you do as a new EV driver I guess, the benefits, financial,comfort and convenience far out weigh the initial headaches.@Simon I'm wondering why you feel the need to post so aggressively here. Surely this is a place for civilised discussion and this thread for people that want to ask questions about EVs from those that have experience with them.
To answer your question, I have one EV that was new (Tesla Model Y on salary sacrifice), one that was bought used (Mini Electric). My wife uses the mini for local trips so we're keeping it indefinitely. The Tesla does my commute + longer trips and will be replaced at 3 years and go on to it's 2nd, 3rd, 4th owners.
Regarding the above points about people getting a new car every 3 years - this could become a problem in the future once all cars in normal use are electric if older EVs are scrapped sooner than necessary to make way for oversupply of newer cars. However at the moment this is helping to build out the used market which is how the majority of people buy their cars.
The point around EV emissions being approx 10x lower than petrol:
40mpg Petrol:
making and transporting the fuel: 80g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel : 273g CO2/mile
3.5m/kWh EV - charging anytime:
Making and transporting the fuel (uk grid average @126g CO2/kWh): 36g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel: n/a
Approx 7.8x lower CO2 per mile
3.5m/kWh EV - charging at off peak times:
Making and transporting the fuel (uk grid off peak average @80g CO2/kWh): 22g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel: n/a
Approx 12.4x lower CO2 per mile
To answer your question, I have one EV that was new (Tesla Model Y on salary sacrifice), one that was bought used (Mini Electric). My wife uses the mini for local trips so we're keeping it indefinitely. The Tesla does my commute + longer trips and will be replaced at 3 years and go on to it's 2nd, 3rd, 4th owners.
Regarding the above points about people getting a new car every 3 years - this could become a problem in the future once all cars in normal use are electric if older EVs are scrapped sooner than necessary to make way for oversupply of newer cars. However at the moment this is helping to build out the used market which is how the majority of people buy their cars.
The point around EV emissions being approx 10x lower than petrol:
40mpg Petrol:
making and transporting the fuel: 80g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel : 273g CO2/mile
3.5m/kWh EV - charging anytime:
Making and transporting the fuel (uk grid average @126g CO2/kWh): 36g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel: n/a
Approx 7.8x lower CO2 per mile
3.5m/kWh EV - charging at off peak times:
Making and transporting the fuel (uk grid off peak average @80g CO2/kWh): 22g CO2/mile
Burning the fuel: n/a
Approx 12.4x lower CO2 per mile
My only qualms about EV long drives, is the planning thats required, in the past i would just fill up jump in and head to off to holiday. Now just for my sanity im checking what decent chargers are enroute and alternatives to them if they are busy or out of operation, and looking for chargers at the destination etc, also having to remember to charge to 100% before a big journey rather than the normal 80
The planning will become a non-issue as there is further expansion of rapid chargers on major routes, and when people finally understand that destination chargers are extremely important and need attention too.
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If you accept the premise that there is a finite number of cars in the U.K. and cars only have a finite useful life then building new cars is always going to be a thing.
You can claim personal transport isn’t sustainable, fine, but it’s the practical reality of living in a western society. I can’t see that changing any time soon.
What you can’t claim is building a new electric vehicle is worse that building a new fossil fuelled vehicle and ultimately that is the alternative if you are not building electric.
If you are going to build a new car, build the lowest impact version of what you need which is currently an electric vehicle.
You single out the original purchaser as not being sustainable but in reality that person is irrelevant, someone has to buy it, that doesn’t mean it’s scrapped when they sell it into the used market.
You can claim personal transport isn’t sustainable, fine, but it’s the practical reality of living in a western society. I can’t see that changing any time soon.
What you can’t claim is building a new electric vehicle is worse that building a new fossil fuelled vehicle and ultimately that is the alternative if you are not building electric.
If you are going to build a new car, build the lowest impact version of what you need which is currently an electric vehicle.
You single out the original purchaser as not being sustainable but in reality that person is irrelevant, someone has to buy it, that doesn’t mean it’s scrapped when they sell it into the used market.
Agree - a couple of years ago lots of planning was needed. Now maybe a couple of mins for a really long trip if you’ve not done that route before.
Once we know that every motorway services has 20+ ultra rapid chargers, no planning will be needed.
Hotels and other accommodation are beginning to realise that destination charging is a big selling point so that should become the norm too - though at the moment still have to check whether they have charging. Good destination charging is why I’ve only needed to rapid charge twice in the last year.
Yes of course - all* cars depreciate
It can... but they should also expect to be corrected/called out when the "why" is a load of made up nonsense - and if they'd actually read the thread they'd already realise that most of the reasons they come out with have already been dispelled/explained.
Not saying that they should be replied to in an aggressive/condescending manner, but I can understand the frustration of having to respond to the same FUD over and over again which has already been addressed multiple times before.
There would be no new buyers if those new buyers didn't have second hand buyers to sell the car to after they were done with it - of course the second hand market is of consideration to manufacturers.
Most people wouldn't buy a new car (even if they were in a position to do so), regardless of power train, so yes - in your words - they are relying on people rich enough to buy new cars and lose loads of money so they can get a bargain (or at least something they can afford).
Glad you've at least acknowledged this part!
* rare cases of certain classics aside obviously.
You need to consider building the car for total impact. And charging losses
Think you missed the point. Most EVs are bought under company car schemes for low BIK. And cheap 2yr old EVs are not at the end of the depreciation. You could still lose another £5k in the first year of ownership.Yes of course - all* cars depreciate
It can... but they should also expect to be corrected/called out when the "why" is a load of made up nonsense - and if they'd actually read the thread they'd already realise that most of the reasons they come out with have already been dispelled/explained.
Not saying that they should be replied to in an aggressive/condescending manner, but I can understand the frustration of having to respond to the same FUD over and over again which has already been addressed multiple times before.
There would be no new buyers if those new buyers didn't have second hand buyers to sell the car to after they were done with it - of course the second hand market is of consideration to manufacturers.
Most people wouldn't buy a new car (even if they were in a position to do so), regardless of power train, so yes - in your words - they are relying on people rich enough to buy new cars and lose loads of money so they can get a bargain (or at least something they can afford).
Glad you've at least acknowledged this part!
* rare cases of certain classics aside obviously.
Soldato
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For completeness, you need to take in even more.
- The lifetime of the car and its maintenance (yearly oil changes on ICE comes to mind)
- End of life of ICE vs EV (the motor industry is very good at recycling)
- Fuel and its production and impact (oil drilling vs mining, spillages, disasters, transport, conflict over oil, minerals etc)
I seem to remember the whole picture has been looked at, will try and dig it out.
Of course we do if we're doing a full lifecycle analysis.
Let's assume a Golf / ID3 sized car doing 120k miles over their lives with several owners before they are recycled.
Combustion car @ 40mpg
Manufacturing CO2 - 12,000kg
Fuelling CO2 - 42,360kg
Lifetime emissions = 54,360kg or 450g CO2 per mile
EV @ 3.5 miles/kwh
Manufacturing CO2 - 14,500kg
Fuelling CO2 - 2,640kg
Charging losses (approx 5%) = 132kg
Lifetime emissions = 17,272kg or 143g CO2 per mile
This doesn't include the point that the carbon intensity of the electricity will improve over it's life, reduced servicing needs for the EV (oil etc), and also doesn't include the other emissions from the combustion car that contribute to poor air quality (e.g. CO, NOx etc..)
The EV battery can be reused once it's finished in the car, then ultimately recycled and used in a new vehicle.
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