EV general discussion

[WJA96]

It's not utterly irrational at all. Slightly perhaps, and many worry about it where perhaps it won't really affect them but to dismiss it as utterly irrational is unfair.

I think we're going to have to disagree on this. How is it rational to not buy something on the grounds that it might not make it to the next refuelling location?

Is an EV showing 50 miles range to empty any different to an ICE car? I don't see it. And even if you allow for the longer refuelling times, that's not range anxiety, that's just bad planning.

You definitely have to change the way you drive. When I was younger I would drive for 6-7 hours and empty the tank on the car in one hit. I would buy cars on teh basis that they had 90 or 100l fuel tanks so I could drive to the far side of Germany without filling up. But as I've got older I need to stop every 2-3 hours and realistically that's about 200-250 miles of driving in an EV. So you stop for 50 minutes and you can go again for 200-250 miles. It's definitely slower, and any savings I make on fuel costs are frittered away on coffee but it's nothing to be anxious about. Just different.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Difficult to know isn't it! There's far fewer components and moving parts in EVs, though those that are are more significant/costly to replace. Given how batteries in general work there's nothing to suggest that a current EV battery couldn't be swapped with different tech in the future... (bit of a guess there, but certainly if they were developed with retro-fitting in mind).

Is there any data that's recorded as to why current cars are scrapped?

My current Kia Sportage is 7 years old and hasn't had any work done or had any signs of needing anything replaced other than usual wear and tear (tyres, break pads). I see plenty of 10 and 60 plates around and unless you look at the plate you wouldn't spot them as being an old car.

I was more thinking about things which were specifically not the battery or motor.

Things like rust, suspension (heavy car, rubbish roads), brakes(due to a lack of use), safety features not working will be an MOT fail (air bag, ABS, front radar/braking etc), paint, infotainment, seats, air con, other interior wear issues, stains, collision damage etc.

Some of the above are really expensive to fix for people who rely on garages to do the work.

The proportion of battered cars which are a decade+ old starts to get much bigger, very few are actually looked after and get more than an MOT.

 

[Orionaut]

Things like rust, .

Bit off topic but..

There is no excuse for rust on a modern car. None!

In My fantasy world, every time a vehicle fails an MOT on rust, the manufacturer would get a fine!

 

[Hawk Tuah]

I was more thinking about things which were specifically not the battery or motor.

Things like rust, suspension (heavy car, rubbish roads), brakes(due to a lack of use), safety features not working will be an MOT fail (air bag, ABS, front radar/braking etc), paint, infotainment, seats, air con, other interior wear issues, stains, collision damage etc.

Some of the above are really expensive to fix for people who rely on garages to do the work.

The proportion of battered cars which are a decade+ old starts to get much bigger, very few are actually looked after and get more than an MOT.

I expect non EV related mechanical issues to become a problem long before I'm considering the battery is beyond it's usable life. Things like suspension, bearings, bushes etc.

 

[WJA96]

I was more thinking about things which were specifically not the battery or motor.

Things like rust, suspension (heavy car, rubbish roads), brakes(due to a lack of use), safety features not working will be an MOT fail (air bag, ABS, front radar/braking etc), paint, infotainment, seats, air con, other interior wear issues, stains, collision damage etc.

Some of the above are really expensive to fix for people who rely on garages to do the work.

The proportion of battered cars which are a decade+ old starts to get much bigger, very few are actually looked after and get more than an MOT.

And isn't that a great thing? The most abused bit of a modern car is generally the engine and transmission. Things that are effectively maintenance free on an EV. Anything to do with suspension, steering or braking are covered by the MOT just like an ICE car and all the other things you mention are the same as well (or potentially more in the case of some cars like Tesla) but the servicing requirements and costs on EVs should be less than an ICE car, and so lengthen the real life of cars.

 

[WJA96]

I expect non EV related mechanical issues to become a problem long before I'm considering the battery is beyond it's usable life. Things like suspension, bearings, bushes etc.

I agree 100%

 

[[TW]Fox]

How is it rational to not buy something on the grounds that it might not make it to the next refuelling location?

Quite rational depending on how long that refuel takes, how available the refuelling locations are and how often you're likely to encounter that issue.

Is an EV showing 50 miles range to empty any different to an ICE car?

Yes, because within 3 minutes of my ICE car showing 50 miles to empty it can be showing 700 miles to empty.

I don't see it. And even if you allow for the longer refuelling times, that's not range anxiety, that's just bad planning.

But it remains an issue - people largely don't want to make major changes to how they use vehicles just to accommodate a new fuel type.

I want an EV - I'm really keen on replacing our Mini Cooper petrol with a Mini Electric. Alongside my 530d I think it's the ideal second car - but until something material changes thats all it can ever be for me, an ideal second car. Absolutely great for the office, or the supermarket, but we do a lot of travel for which only an ICE car is useful. It's 250 miles to the airport, where we drive (or did, lol) on a semi regular basis. I can't charge it in the long stay carpark at Heathrow. When I'm late for a flight or get back with 250 miles to drive late in the evening you just want to drive and go - you cannot do that with current electric vehicles. When we're on trips - which we make (or made, current situation being as it is!) on a regular basis, we'll often drive 3000-5000km over the space of 2 weeks or so. It's annoying enough in these circumstances to find a petrol rental car waiting for you let alone an ICE.

This is the issue with EV for me currently. It seems like we're not quite ready to move to it yet but are being pushed towards it anyway because of the environmental implications.

When I can buy a 5 Series which does 400-500 miles on a charge and takes 20 minutes to charge, I'll be in the queue. I want an electric car - the electric drivetrain would absolutely suit the cars I like to drive and how I like to drive them. Instead we get rubbish like the 530e, which does a whole 25 miles on electric and consequently has a useless 40 litre petrol tank. Brilliant.

 

[Nasher]

I don't think it's lithium ion EVs that these will be killing off. It's ICE cars.

There will still be a lot of "collectable" ICE cars kept running for a very long time, so the support will still be there. The current EVs are a stop gap until something better is made, they are white goods, like a toaster.

EVs just aren't ready yet, like James May said at the moment it's just a club.

 

[Mike9000]

There will still be a lot of "collectable" ICE cars kept running for a very long time. There are no current EVs which I can see people hanging on to, they are white goods, like a toaster.

This is where I am. I fully expect I’ll always have a garaged ICE car for old fashioned fun as long as feasible. I have absolutely no issue with running an EV for day to day and family stuff though.

I just can’t afford one right now and my current family car works just fine....

* heads out to see if battery is now flat as it’s not moved for weeks *

 

[WJA96]

Quite rational depending on how long that refuel takes, how available the refuelling locations are and how often you're likely to encounter that issue.



Yes, because within 3 minutes of my ICE car showing 50 miles to empty it can be showing 700 miles to empty.



But it remains an issue - people largely don't want to make major changes to how they use vehicles just to accommodate a new fuel type.

I want an EV - I'm really keen on replacing our Mini Cooper petrol with a Mini Electric. Alongside my 530d I think it's the ideal second car - but until something material changes thats all it can ever be for me, an ideal second car. Absolutely great for the office, or the supermarket, but we do a lot of travel for which only an ICE car is useful. It's 250 miles to the airport, where we drive (or did, lol) on a semi regular basis. I can't charge it in the long stay carpark at Heathrow. When I'm late for a flight or get back with 250 miles to drive late in the evening you just want to drive and go - you cannot do that with current electric vehicles. When we're on trips - which we make (or made, current situation being as it is!) on a regular basis, we'll often drive 3000-5000km over the space of 2 weeks or so. It's annoying enough in these circumstances to find a petrol rental car waiting for you let alone an ICE.

This is the issue with EV for me currently. It seems like we're not quite ready to move to it yet but are being pushed towards it anyway because of the environmental implications.

When I can buy a 5 Series which does 400-500 miles on a charge and takes 20 minutes to charge, I'll be in the queue. I want an electric car - the electric drivetrain would absolutely suit the cars I like to drive and how I like to drive them. Instead we get rubbish like the 530e, which does a whole 25 miles on electric and consequently has a useless 40 litre petrol tank. Brilliant.

And you absolutely make my points for me. ALL of your valid concerns are rational. Those new solid state batteries will make a 500 mile range car a realistic thing, for a realistic price. The whole 500 miles range in 20 minutes thing is about halfway there, given the right battery technology and charger. I think the Porsche Taycan can refuel at 10 miles per minute with warm batteries.

And the fact that the Mini Electric is crippled with crap range is a BMW/Mini thing rather than an EV thing in general. And while I completely understand that you're a BMW person, I think they've been caught out somewhat after making a really good opening in the EV market with the i3 and i8 range extender concept.

And as regards parking at Heathrow, you can now book car parking where the car is charged for you prior to collection. Of course, it costs something extra but if you charge the car up overnight, the night before the flight, at an airport hotel, that ceases to be an issue as most EVs use very little power in parked mode. But then you have to pay for the hotel.

This thread takes me back to some of your 'younger self' posts regarding whether or not you'd ever drive a diesel...

 

[Hawk Tuah]

This is where I am. I fully expect I’ll always have a garaged ICE car for old fashioned fun as long as feasible. I have absolutely no issue with running an EV for day to day and family stuff though.

I just can’t afford one right now and my current family car works just fine....

* heads out to see if battery is now flat as it’s not moved for weeks *

This is where I am right now.

 

[sovietspybob]

Interesting video from Robert about the ownership of his Leaf and his model 3.

I found them interesting as he's much more of a regular bloke than a traditional car reviewer especially when it comes to the panel fitment of the model 3 for example!

 

[Hawk Tuah]

This thread takes me back to some of your 'younger self' posts regarding whether or not you'd ever drive a diesel...

I still remember being barraged about what a stupid car my Mk1 Insight was. And all the jokes about going flat, and being useless in no time when I bought my Leaf.

 

[Nasher]

And you absolutely make my points for me. ALL of your valid concerns are rational. Those new solid state batteries will make a 500 mile range car a realistic thing, for a realistic price. The whole 500 miles range in 20 minutes thing is about halfway there, given the right battery technology and charger. I think the Porsche Taycan can refuel at 10 miles per minute with warm batteries.

And the fact that the Mini Electric is crippled with crap range is a BMW/Mini thing rather than an EV thing in general. And while I completely understand that you're a BMW person, I think they've been caught out somewhat after making a really good opening in the EV market with the i3 and i8 range extender concept.

And as regards parking at Heathrow, you can now book car parking where the car is charged for you prior to collection. Of course, it costs something extra but if you charge the car up overnight, the night before the flight, at an airport hotel, that ceases to be an issue as most EVs use very little power in parked mode. But then you have to pay for the hotel.

This thread takes me back to some of your 'younger self' posts regarding whether or not you'd ever drive a diesel...

The weight is the problem. If they can make batteries much lighter it would solve the poor range and crap handling at the same time. You wouldn't need as much capacity either as it would go much further, so charge times would be less.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I completely understand that you're a BMW person, I think they've been caught out somewhat after making a really good opening in the EV market with the i3 and i8 range extender concept.

I completely agree here. It really disappoints me that 8 years after Tesla entered their space the German manufactures still cannot offer the executive market anything more than compromised plugin hybrid's.

I don't want a 520i with half sized fuel tank and 25 miles of ev range. Does anyone who isn't looking for cheap company car tax want one of those?

The tech to deliver a 300 mile range in a large saloon has been around for a long time in the Model S. Why does nobody make one?

Even when they do announce a full EV it's usually some sort of odd looking standalone model. Just give me an electric 5 series or A6 or something.

 

[Orionaut]

This is where I am. I fully expect I’ll always have a garaged ICE car for old fashioned fun as long as feasible. I have absolutely no issue with running an EV for day to day and family stuff though.

How well do EV's cope with limited use?

I have a friend (And my position isn't that different really) where the car only gets used once a fortnight or so. ICE is fine with this. But how do EV's fair?

 

[Simon]

How well do EV's cope with limited use?

I have a friend (And my position isn't that different really) where the car only gets used once a fortnight or so. ICE is fine with this. But how do EV's fair?

What issue to you foresee? It can be charged at home and even if it isn't it has a huge battery. Its more likely for a ICE car to have a flat battery ironically (obviously not after two weeks but this is a ICE issue for limited use)

 

[Russinating]

How well do EV's cope with limited use?

I have a friend (And my position isn't that different really) where the car only gets used once a fortnight or so. ICE is fine with this. But how do EV's fair?

As above, what wouldn't they cope with? I left my Model 3 for just over 7 full days whilst on holiday and it lost 0% charge. It dropped by 1% pretty soonish after I returned when I got in and did a software update so I'd estimate 1% drain per week assuming everything's turned off and it's not woken up.

That's on the SR+ so it'll be even less as a % for the LR and P.

 

[Orionaut]

What issue to you foresee? It can be charged at home and even if it isn't it has a huge battery. Its more likely for a ICE car to have a flat battery ironically (obviously not after two weeks but this is a ICE issue for limited use)

I am wondering whether EV batteries might deteriorate if they are not used.

This is quite apart from the fact that most of the economics (Battery leases etc) presume a significant regular usage. I would not want to be in the position of paying £100/Month or whatever for the privilege of owning an EV on top of all the other costs of car ownership, whether I was using it or not.

 

[Fusion]

The tech to deliver a 300 mile range in a large saloon has been around for a long time in the Model S. Why does nobody make one?.

Probably because the German automotive sector in particular has always been very heavily invested in combustion engine technology and the various sub-components and ancillaries that go along with it. Think of Bosch, ZF Sachs, Getrag, Mahle. All very large organisations with Billion Euro+ revenues that employ hundreds of thousands of people collectively. Many of these jobs are potentially at risk with EV dominance.

We think of their manufacturers as offering advanced technology (and lots of it is), but really, the fundamental designs and products are conservative (large, powerful, conventionally powered vehicles in traditional bodystyles). They excel at making incremental improvements to technology- a 6% improvement to fuel efficiency here, a power hike of 8% there. They have gotten used to taking a formula that works, and continually refining it- and it's worked incredibly well and made them a fortune, obviously.

I just don't feel that such large, conservative entities are best equipped to usher in a new phase, a game changer. It's a bit like trying to turn an oil tanker round. The agility of Silicon Valley has allowed them to overcome the inertia that is probably present in many of the big German companies. Whether they can maintain the lead once the old players begin to employ their vast capital and resources, is another thing. It's going to be an exciting few decades in motoring watching the sector develop. Competition is ultimately what drives progress.