I don't think its fair to compare an S4 and C43 to the Tesla SR+, it's not marketed as a 'performance' car. Hardly anyone buys 3 Series/A4/C Class with anything bigger than a 4-pot engine these days and the SR+ is the 'bum-basic' version. The power on the Tesla is very much an outlier and is basically because they can while adding next to no cost (upfront or running costs) to the car unlike an ICE.
EV general discussion
- Thread starter Ricochet J
- Start date
Have you driven a C-class recently?
Soldato
- Joined
- 27 Dec 2005
- Posts
- 17,315
- Location
- Bristol
Don't feed the trolls.
Underboss
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,864
- Location
- Oxfordshire / Bucks
ok i decided, i have posted in speak EV
my thread is here if you wish to take a look
https://www.speakev.com/threads/should-i-get-a-leaf-or-stay-with-ice.150397/
thanks for your help everyone, much appreciated
my thread is here if you wish to take a look
https://www.speakev.com/threads/should-i-get-a-leaf-or-stay-with-ice.150397/
thanks for your help everyone, much appreciated
Underboss
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,864
- Location
- Oxfordshire / Bucks
im more interested in hearing more about your Leaf when you put it up for sale
Won't be until a couple of weeks after lockdown ends. My new car is stuck at the dealership until then.
Underboss
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,864
- Location
- Oxfordshire / Bucks
This is what I'm hoping for, 3 years from I will be looking for a replacement for my Zoe, and a model 3 would be a nice upgrade
Hadn't appreciated the id3 cost in Germany with subsidies 23K euros
https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-ice/
at those home prices,wonder how much capacity vw will dedicate to eu customers like the UK -
yes they want the trade, but if you can reduce your own transport costs, is that trade so important, need some home/uk manufacturing.
https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-ice/
battery tech slow down should stabilise residuals, and, I guess, they are suggesting, ubiquity, will reduce them to ice values;
at those home prices,wonder how much capacity vw will dedicate to eu customers like the UK -
yes they want the trade, but if you can reduce your own transport costs, is that trade so important, need some home/uk manufacturing.
Soldato
- Joined
- 27 Dec 2005
- Posts
- 17,315
- Location
- Bristol
There was a fairly interesting article/video on a Model X that had done over 350,000 miles as it was part of a hire fleet and the maintenance it had needed totalled $18k with 13% battery degredation. This is one article: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/28/350000-miles-in-a-tesla-model-x-just-18000-in-maintenance/
With an estimate of $3-7k for a Model 3 battery replacement I don't think that's crazy given it's an incredibly niche requirement and skill set. With time, if there is a significant advancement in battery tech, what else would be the reason to get rid of one? With old ICEs the reasons are breakdown and fuel economy but with so fewer moving parts on an EV (any manufacturer), software updates and fuel economy/emissions being a null issue it'll be interesting to see how many original EVs are on the road in 10+ years time.
With an estimate of $3-7k for a Model 3 battery replacement I don't think that's crazy given it's an incredibly niche requirement and skill set. With time, if there is a significant advancement in battery tech, what else would be the reason to get rid of one? With old ICEs the reasons are breakdown and fuel economy but with so fewer moving parts on an EV (any manufacturer), software updates and fuel economy/emissions being a null issue it'll be interesting to see how many original EVs are on the road in 10+ years time.
Soldato
- Joined
- 25 May 2008
- Posts
- 3,919
- Location
- North Wales
IIRC that figure was just for a module replacement not the whole pack BUT that should still bring your range back up and make it good for another 150-200k miles.
I think the residual prices of all the current gen electric cars is very under valued, like you say in 5-10 years when you can still rock around in your model 3 with hardly any maintenance, good performance etc it should still be worth a fair bit, it'll never become a £500 banger.
I can't remember the name/details but there's a guy in Europe who takes old 24kwh Leaf's at the end of their life and upgrades them to either 30kwh, 40kwh or now the newer 64kwh batteries. Drive in, drive out sort of thing. The physical dimensions are the same so it just takes a bit of reprogramming and perhaps suspension tinkering for the latter heavier packs.
I'm surprised this sort of thing isn't more popular. There's fundamentally nothing wrong with an old Leaf, aside from range.
nissan/leaf should be able provide best data on battery and drive train lifespan, since they must have most cars in the wild
.. there is a point, where there is no substitute for real elapsed time, real world conditions ... (like oled, or semiconductor failure)
how much have nissan modified either battery tech, management, drivetrain, motors during the 9 years. ?
Tesla might have a different/reluctance motor, active cooling , which must be technologies Nissan evaluated too, but I don't see nissan as unrepresentative.
(Battery management software must be difficult to reverse engineer by competitors, versus any ICE tech though ... any 3rd party tesla ecu maps yet, or , its all 'encrypted')
.. there is a point, where there is no substitute for real elapsed time, real world conditions ... (like oled, or semiconductor failure)
how much have nissan modified either battery tech, management, drivetrain, motors during the 9 years. ?
Tesla might have a different/reluctance motor, active cooling , which must be technologies Nissan evaluated too, but I don't see nissan as unrepresentative.
(Battery management software must be difficult to reverse engineer by competitors, versus any ICE tech though ... any 3rd party tesla ecu maps yet, or , its all 'encrypted')
If you find the link, I'd be interested. I really don't like the new shape Leaf. Looks the Micras fat ugly sister. But that 64kw battery is mighty desirable.
Soldato
- Joined
- 25 May 2008
- Posts
- 3,919
- Location
- North Wales
Yeah i remember reading an article about the upgraded Leaf battery packs, looked a really good proposition to me. I think due to the newer/better chemistry it didn't even weigh much more if anything as the physical pack size itself was the same, if i had a 24kwh leaf i'd certainly look in to that.
Underboss
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,864
- Location
- Oxfordshire / Bucks
meh, i like the newer leaf over the older one
i always thought the old leaf was nasty
but now im looking at EVs, never seen one in black, except on AT, and it makes such a bid difference, even the diamond cut alloys !
It came back to be. Muxsan. Their twitter handle is muxsan_ev. I saw a post on Twitter they made the other day which reminded me:
https://twitter.com/muxsan_ev/status/1250013161954119680?s=20
A while back when the mk1 Leaf was rock bottom pricing (sub £5k or so) I considered getting one and driving out there for an extender. At the time he was busy, and he relies on scrapped cars for sourcing battery packs so there can be quite a wait. If you can source a battery yourself and get it out to him that's the best way. He also does extender packs in the boot. Lots of options, surprised it isn't more popular.
Pricing for upgrades:
https://muxsan.com/#nissan-leaf-battery-swaps/upgrades
£12k to upgrade my Leaf to 62kw. That actually sounds a lot more palatable than 32k for a new one.