EV general discussion

[b0rn2sk8]

Are you calculating that by just taking away the lease cost from the car cost? If so, that isn’t really a relevant way of calculating the residual value of the car at retail.

It ignores:
Profit (EVs are currently being milked)
Risk
Cost of capital
Cost of lease admin
Cost of disposal
Extra are normally accounted for fully in the period of the lease (expensive for Porsche)
The lease company will not retail the car, it will just go to BCA or whoever to sell it.
Auction fees
Cost of dealer acquisition
Cost of preparing the car for retail
Used dealer profit.

 

[J1nxy]

Are you calculating that by just taking away the lease cost from the car cost? If so, that isn’t really a relevant way of calculating the residual value of the car at retail.

It ignores:
Profit (EVs are currently being milked)
Risk
Cost of capital
Cost of lease admin
Cost of disposal
Extra are normally accounted for fully in the period of the lease (expensive for Porsche)
The lease company will not retail the car, it will just go to BCA or whoever to sell it.
Auction fees
Cost of dealer acquisition
Cost of preparing the car for retail
Used dealer profit.

No, our scheme is a car purchase scheme so I see the start value that you pay for the car, and the value that they guarantee the car will be worth, assuming you stay within the terms, at the end. I can see the cost of the car, maintenance etc individually broken out. I then have the cost per month to me to use the car, and have the option at the end to buy it out if I want.

 

[Greebo]

Are you calculating that by just taking away the lease cost from the car cost? If so, that isn’t really a relevant way of calculating the residual value of the car at retail.

It ignores:
Profit (EVs are currently being milked)
Risk
Cost of capital
Cost of lease admin
Cost of disposal
Extra are normally accounted for fully in the period of the lease (expensive for Porsche)
The lease company will not retail the car, it will just go to BCA or whoever to sell it.
Auction fees
Cost of dealer acquisition
Cost of preparing the car for retail
Used dealer profit.

I am aware of that but comparing it to ICE cars with same list price and base model, no extras. The Porsche EV cars have massive depreciation in comparison. All the other factors you mention apply equally to both ICE and EV cars.

So they are being ultra cautious and assuming massive depreciation. I expect the lease company will be making massive profits on the people who take up the leases esp the Porsche leases. Very little risk with the paltry residuals they are using as well.

Just look at the Porsche 911 992 4S a car with a list price of £98k vs £79k for the Taycan

The 911 is slightly more expensive on lease at £1415 vs £1354 so the 911 has "lost" £55,185 on its £98k vs £52,806 on the Taycan's £79k.

Its even worse if you then put £19k of extras on the Taycan so they are the same list price as the Taycan comes out at £1841 per month vs the 911 £1415 per month. Plus the 911 will have £1000s of VED to be paid over the 3 years compared with £0 on the Taycan.

There is no way that in reality a same price Taycan will be worth £16,614 less (£20k if you include the VED) than the 911 after 3 years. Thats some "extra" they have built in as "risk" on the Porsche.

And it used to be worse. The Taycan has actually come down £120 per month in lease costs over the last few months whereas ICE cars have risen.

And to be honest although a lot of EV car lease deals dont have too generous residuals, its mainly Porsche EV and hybrids that have been clobbered.

You can lease the Tesla Model X Plaid, a £109k car for less money than the much cheaper Taycan.

 

[jpaul]

There is no way that in reality a same price Taycan will be worth £16,614 less than the 911 after 3 years. Thats some "extra" they have built in as "risk" on the Porsche.

that risk can come down to the battery packs, those are cued up items for longer term ownership replacement, versus ICE;
(seems they have an 8year(or 100K), min 70% warranty, no details on throttling)

The lease bounds the first owners Km's, so they put in the appropriate battery depreciation, maybe that's the 16K,

whether, long term, taycann's, versus ice , will clock up more miles, without the onerous petrol costs; probably not a factor if you can afford a new one, but for the 2nd hand owner an attraction.

 

[Greebo]

that risk can come down to the battery packs, those are cued up items for longer term ownership replacement, versus ICE;
(seems they have an 8year(or 100K), min 70% warranty, no details on throttling)

The lease bounds the first owners Km's, so they put in the appropriate battery depreciation, maybe that's the 16K,

whether, long term, taycann's, versus ice , will clock up more miles, without the onerous petrol costs; probably not a factor if you can afford a new one, but for the 2nd hand owner an attraction.

I do see your point but I think you are grasping at straws a bit. Seems unfair the first owner takes the proportion of the battery depreciation esp when lease companies arent doing that with the Tesla X Plaid. Its just seems to be Porsche EVs and hybrids that lease companies have massive downers on.

The lease company will be just selling through auction at 3 years anyway so they dont care about the batteries. Why is a porsche taycan, if you pick a model at similar list price to the Tesla X plaid worth £20k less than the Tesla?

And the reality is with EV cars that the residuals of those models that have been out for 3 years is really strong.

I am probably just being bitter as I considered getting a Taycan but after seeing the lease prices I crossed it off my list.

 

[Journey]

It also is real lacking in tech, can feel a bit dated at times and needs around 3k a year in servicing and warranty.

Got to be a pretty scary prospect for the high-end manufacturers/dealers moving to BEV, and having to convince people they need servicing/warranty at £3k+ for a brake check, and pollen filter change, and where mileage completed make little to no difference to the performance of the car over the lifetime, other than replacing totally depleted batteries. Seems that Porsche have suitably ridiculous servicing costs for they Taycan though, so maybe all is not lost

 

[Regy53]

My experience of Porsche is they do not inflate their residual at all where as Ferrari for example do so massively. So the options and overal residual on 150 odd k is 64 k set by Porsche for 40k miles over 4 years. I doubt it will be worth less but it is expensive ownership.

as a business owner I do wonder how the battery market will fair when the incentives are removed. This also has a potential positive on used prices as at present you can claim 18% tax relief on new vs about 2% on used

 

[chanjy]

My experience of Porsche is they do not inflate their residual at all where as Ferrari for example do so massively. So the options and overal residual on 150 odd k is 64 k set by Porsche for 40k miles over 4 years. I doubt it will be worth less but it is expensive ownership.

as a business owner I do wonder how the battery market will fair when the incentives are removed. This also has a potential positive on used prices as at present you can claim 18% tax relief on new vs about 2% on used

There's a decent number of fairly well depreciated e-trons out there now probably because they were all taken as leases and now have to find private buyers...

 

[RoboCod]

Saw this posted elsewhere. The 5 is huge compared to the original ioniq!

 

[ICDP]

I have been full electric for a year now with an E-Tron 50 Technik through salary sacrifice. I have to say the car is absolutely amazing but with a range of only 170 (180 if I drive it until it dies) miles in summer it does mean any reasonably long trip does require a stop at a rapid. Ironically having an EV with 140 miles in winter and 170 in summer has helped me cope with any range anxiety I had.

I am so convinced with the smoothness, refinement and instant power delivery of electric, that I am now already looking at my next EV as the current lease has 1 year to go. I am looking at a Q4 50 S Line Quattro Sportback for the next EV and with a real range of ~250 miles + in summer and ~ 200 in winter. Or I could go with the 40 RWD Sport with smaller 19" alloys and get an extra ~20 miles range to really eliminate range anxiety.

 

[Regy53]

There's a decent number of fairly well depreciated e-trons out there now probably because they were all taken as leases and now have to find private buyers...

They will come but yes this is the battle . The uptake is still tricky. I think once people sit in them and drive them they will soon realise it’s not as bad as they thought. That said etrons range is a issue

 

[Greebo]

My experience of Porsche is they do not inflate their residual at all where as Ferrari for example do so massively. So the options and overal residual on 150 odd k is 64 k set by Porsche for 40k miles over 4 years. I doubt it will be worth less but it is expensive ownership.

as a business owner I do wonder how the battery market will fair when the incentives are removed. This also has a potential positive on used prices as at present you can claim 18% tax relief on new vs about 2% on used

Its not Porsche doing it though its every lease company. They honestly see £100k Porsches as being worth peanuts after three years. The current market and other BEV suggests otherwise.

 

[thewanted]

I am looking at a Q4 50 S Line Quattro Sportback

I really want a Q4 50 Edition 1 but they are so outrageously expensive at £60k list if you option the Tech and Comfort and Sound Packs

The ID.4 GTX is almost a bargain at £44050 on drivethedeal.com since it includes the HUD, 12" Nav, adaptive cruise, heated seats and steering wheel, matrix LEDs etc.

 

[jpaul]

Saw this posted elsewhere. The 5 is huge compared to the original ioniq!

crikey that is not a very flattering shot of the 5, maybe the colour is wrong, but it looks like it has stealth style anti-radar panels - that triangle.
not the friendly grin of the Polestar2 either.

 

[chanjy]

I really want a Q4 50 Edition 1 but they are so outrageously expensive at £60k list if you open the Tech and Comfort and Sound Packs

The ID.4 GTX is almost a bargain at £44050 on drivethedeal.com since it includes the HUD, 12" Nav, adaptive cruise, heated seats and steering wheel, matrix LEDs etc.

ID4 interior is basically the same as the ID3 though isn't it, and that is considered not great for a £30k car.

Q4 is just out as well while VW seem desperate to shift electric cars and offering huge discounts. Give it a few months and you probably start getting deals on the Q4 too, some of the biggest discounts on DtD come from some of their Audi dealers.

 

[thewanted]

ID4 interior is basically the same as the ID3 though isn't it, and that is considered not great for a £30k car.

Q4 is just out as well while VW seem desperate to shift electric cars and offering huge discounts. Give it a few months and you probably start getting deals on the Q4 too, some of the biggest discounts on DtD come from some of their Audi dealers.

The ID.4 is noticeably nicer inside compared to the ID.3. It’s no Audi, but it’s not terrible either. Whilst the Q4 is a step up, it doesn’t feel as premium as its ICE equivalents like an A4 or Q5. There has definitely been some cost-cutting.

You can get 3.9% off a Q4 at autoebid.com at the moment which is the best offer I can find. The offers will be updated at the beginning of October but I very much doubt they’ll be getting much better than that given the supply chain issues.

 

[ICDP]

I really want a Q4 50 Edition 1 but they are so outrageously expensive at £60k list if you open the Tech and Comfort and Sound Packs

The ID.4 GTX is almost a bargain at £44050 on drivethedeal.com since it includes the HUD, 12" Nav, adaptive cruise, heated seats and steering wheel, matrix LEDs etc.

I test drove the ID.4 and I loved it apart from the MMI and HVAC controls as it was not as good or easy to use as the Audi version. I did look at the edition 1 but was not a fan of the styling as I prefer the contrasting look on the S Line or the even cheaper Sport. I can totally live without Matrix lights, dynamic indicators and the electric seats. The only reason I am looking at the S Line trim is for the rear privacy glass, or I would be happy with Sport trim. I'm not even sold on the virtual cockpit lark as I never use it on the E-Tron 50 other than power and speed with time and date in the centre. Though I do get why a lot of people can't spec a car without them.

One thing to be very careful for is the default steering wheel, the UK spec on S Line and below does not have regen paddles. You must spec the upgraded steering wheel at ~£285. This is why I hate reviews becasue they always get cars with hidden extras and rarely ever list the base spec. Every single UK review of the Q4 shows the upgraded flat top and bottom steering wheel with regen paddles as if it is standard.

Ideally I would have a Q4 50 Sportback in S Line trim with 19" alloys, privacy glass, upgraded steering wheel, front and rear parking sensors and a reversing camera. Though Audi always split the stuff you want into pointless packs that cost a fortune to get.

 

[jpaul]

that begs the querstion of how important regen paddles are -
in an ICE if you are driving economically you take your foot off the accelerator, knowing how quickly the car will decelerate for the manouver you are intending;
also, where you would be intentionally down changing in an ice for additional engine braking, for a corner say, I can see the paddle would then give a way of recovering that additional energy you want to dissipate, in a one foot driving method, but, you are now using your hand instead LOL - versus blended braking

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Drive one and you wouldn’t ask. Yes they are handy when you have the element of recovering energy in a more straightforward manner. But then easy to turn off for motorway where no regen is better. The Taycan does this automatically for example.

 

[lordrobs]

Drive one and you wouldn’t ask. Yes they are handy when you have the element of recovering energy in a more straightforward manner. But then easy to turn off for motorway where no regen is better. The Taycan does this automatically for example.

I've never driven an EV and maybe I'm missing something completely obvious but why can't all that be done automatically via the brake pedal?

So basically no regen so the car can 'coast' but when braking the braking effort is translated to X amount of regen right up to the point where the physical brakes have to join in. From what I've read about the amount of regen available in one pedal driving it sounds like by just driving normally there would be enough retardation through regen alone to do the bulk of the effort.