EV general discussion

bigmike20vt said:
I guess they have the same problem that farmers had who were annoyed when DDT insecticide was banned.

given the rate at which EVs are improving WRT range , and charge speed

and whilst the charging roll out is not as good as I would have hoped...... it IS ramping up.

so really judging today's cars against a ban which is happening in 12 years time is not an apples with apples comparison.

even in 12 years time you will still be able to get a plug in hybrid likely with 60 miles of EV range so really it's just not an issue imo.

hell it shouldn't have been an issue before the government U turn but it sure as hell shouldn't be now.
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60 miles range hybrids are here now. In 12 years time I am expecting 120miles+ hybrids to be the norm.
 
adam cool dude said:
Who is going to foot the bill for all of this?

There are 10000 stores in the UK of the big supermarkets. It will make HS2 look like pocket change. What is the environmental impact of installing this and how long would it take for an EV to break even?

It is all a massive joke really but the EV itself is clean right?
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We should have gone the Dutch route and made all car parks over a certain size have a solar panel roof plus car chargers.
 
I'm considering replacing the e2008 with an nicer Alphard than I had anticipated, possibly with the hybrid. It is just a more useful package when you prioritise convenience :D
 
[TW]Fox said:
They will be banned from 2035 surely?
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Depends how you read the definitions of 'ZEV' that manufacturers have to meet by 2035 in the consultation / responses for the ZEV mandate

www.gov.uk

A zero emission vehicle (ZEV) mandate and CO2 emissions regulation for new cars and vans in the UK

Seeking views on the final design of the UK’s ZEV mandate and CO2 emissions regulation for new cars and vans.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Question 9: What are your views on the proposed minimum requirements for ZEVs (emissions, minimum range and warranty)?
A majority of those who responded to this question disagreed with the proposed minimum requirements for ZEVs though views differed across the minimum technical specifications.

On warranties, many welcomed the proposals as helpful for consumers. Most were content with specifications for cars but several vehicle manufacturers and some fleet operators suggested that battery degradation may be higher for vans given the different use cases and that the specification should be aligned with existing and emerging international standards.

On minimum range, many welcomed this as something that would give a positive experience for users, build consumer confidence, and support the fledgling second-hand market. Logistics sector stakeholders supported the need for suitable vehicles with an appropriate minimum range and other respondents expressed concern that 120 miles could be viewed as the lowest common denominator. Others viewed it as a minimum that should not be increased, with some making the point that the specific requirements should be subject to review.

Several respondents, including several vehicle manufacturers, expressed the view that the market could decide what range is needed and no minimum should be required, indicating a potential role for smaller range vehicles for some use cases, and that the proposals could limit consumer choice. Concern was raised that special consideration should also be given to multi-stage-build vehicles, given the different uses and unique testing protocols in this segment of the market.

On emissions, there was general agreement that the definition should be 0 grams CO2/km and that the definition should be simple. Opinions were split on alternative fuels and e-fuels with some respondents in favour and others against. Some sought clarification on the role of hydrogen combustion, while others suggested that zero nitrogen oxides (NOx) emissions should be added to the criteria.

Joint response​

We will implement the warranty requirements for cars as proposed. We acknowledge the challenges presented by battery warranty requirements for some vans and will amend battery warranty from 70% to 65% capacity at 8 years/100,000 miles, aligning with the international United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) standards that are under development with a minimum of 3 years or 60,000 miles (whichever comes first) for the remainder of the vehicle.

We define a ZEV as vehicle that has 0 grams CO2/km according to the Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP). We will retain the existing convention that fuel cell electric vehicles are classified as 0 grams CO2/km. Our definition of a ZEV will not include other targeted greenhouse gases (GHGs) under the Climate Change Act, such as NOx, because there are no current internationally agreed testing regimes for cars that test for these. Any vehicle, regardless of drivetrain technology, could qualify as a ZEV under this regulation, should they be considered to emit 0 grams CO2/km.

We will reduce the minimum range by 20 miles from 120 to 100 and exempt ZEVs that have a range lower than 100 miles but that received, in 2023 or earlier, a type approval that is valid in the UK from that requirement. For multi-stage vans (MSVs), range is taken from the base model.

We will keep minimum requirements under review and consider changes as appropriate, as technology and consumer requirements develop.
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Particularly interesting:

We define a ZEV as vehicle that has 0 grams CO2/km according to the Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP). We will retain the existing convention that fuel cell electric vehicles are classified as 0 grams CO2/km. Our definition of a ZEV will not include other targeted greenhouse gases (GHGs) under the Climate Change Act, such as NOx, because there are no current internationally agreed testing regimes for cars that test for these. Any vehicle, regardless of drivetrain technology, could qualify as a ZEV under this regulation, should they be considered to emit 0 grams CO2/km.
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Any vehicle, regardless of drivetrain technology.

It will be interesting to watch development in this area, as you could see that a hybrid (of whatever type) will qualify as a ZEV as long as it can complete WLTP with 0g emitted and meet the other criteria regarding minimum ranges and battery warranty etc.
 
[TW]Fox said:
Of all the places that need chargers the supermarket would seem like the last place - 95% of visitors to a supermarket are surely local people within 10 miles of home who can and will charge at home? Why would you want to charge at a supermarket?
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Depends on the supermarket to be honest. I've just been up to the Lake District for a long weekend, and the local supermarket (Booths in Keswick) has 4 rapid chargers in the carpark - the only ones for quite some distance. Ideal if you're staying in a self-catering cottage (as we were) and need to pop in to grab groceries for a few days. In the 45 mins it took to do our shop we were back up to 80% and ready for the drive home.
 
Kenai said:
Depends how you read the definitions of 'ZEV' that manufacturers have to meet by 2035 in the consultation / responses for the ZEV mandate

www.gov.uk

A zero emission vehicle (ZEV) mandate and CO2 emissions regulation for new cars and vans in the UK

Seeking views on the final design of the UK’s ZEV mandate and CO2 emissions regulation for new cars and vans.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk



Particularly interesting:



Any vehicle, regardless of drivetrain technology.

It will be interesting to watch development in this area, as you could see that a hybrid (of whatever type) will qualify as a ZEV as long as it can complete WLTP with 0g emitted and meet the other criteria regarding minimum ranges and battery warranty etc.
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Until the government change the wording.
 
Greebo said:
You know what I meant, leading up to the ban. Already in 3 years they have gone from 30-40 miles to 60-80 mile range.
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Hybrids are always going to be a compromise. Having all the capacity, power and electrics to fully drive a car 80 miles on electric only. Plus the additional weight of a fully functioning ICE car as well. It's like having a car that can run on both petrol and diesel, and you the solution is to have two fuel tanks, two fully functioning engines, etc. The weight and amount of stuff to cram into the car is always going to make it more expensive, complicated to maintain and inefficient to run.

What I'd rather see is cars primarily being EVs with fully electric drivetrains, but with bespoke range extender generators for when you need it.
 
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What sort of pack size do you need to go 80 miles in a PHEV given they are usually less efficient than a full BEV? A leaf needed ~30kwh to do that reliably.

I can’t help but feel like it would be more expensive than just building a full BEV at this point, certainly way more complex on the packaging front. It will probably heavier as well which is always a complaint of the most avid ICE advocates.
 
hillbilly2 said:
Is a "Smart" wall box charger even needed? When you can program the car to only charge at off peak times. Just looking online as prices, the smart ones are twice the price. The Tesla Gen 3 wall charger is only $800
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A recent Tesla app update lets you do this with the Gen 3 wall connector too. You can also finally view charge stats.

w0NhIoL.jpg
 
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Bug One said:
What I'd rather see is cars primarily being EVs with fully electric drivetrains, but with bespoke range extender generators for when you need it.
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Essentially no difference to a PHEV, still needs all the same stuff to support that range extender functionality?

To me PHEV is the right answer for now, maybe by 2030 things will improve but if not things like Mazdas Range extender concept, that'd do me, rather than full BEV as I can't large waves of support for EV infrastructure coming in 6 yrs, certainly not enough to support the adoption rate, such is the glacial pace of rollout in UK, you only have to look at the past?
 
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sandys said:
Essentially no difference to a PHEV, still needs all the same stuff to support that range extender functionality?
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I think there's elements that will be simpler, as you don't need to try and integrate it directly into the drivetrain with clever gearboxes etc.

You can also design it without worrying about making it suitable for actually directly powering a car, you can design primarily for peak efficiency to recharge a battery, rather than worrying about whether it drives nicely, so it can then be smaller, quieter and lower powered - i3 REX was something like a 35hp engine for example.
 
Haggisman said:
The disadvantage being there is a lot more to go wrong with it.

I have a dumb "Chargemaster" point which I got free with my Zoe.

A couple of my work colleagues have "smart" chargers (can't remember the exact make, but 2 different ones), they've both had numerous issues with them losing network connection, "forgetting" the schedule, throwing up random error codes etc, all resulting in failed charges or charging outside of the cheap hours, whereas I've never had a single problem with mine.

The only "issue" it has caused me was when I was considering a MK1 MG5, which doesn't have any kind of onboard charge scheduling.
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it's a good point. we got the zappi because whilst it is a smart charger it also has the controls on the box as well so should the back end go down I still have a decent charge point.
 
sandys said:
Essentially no difference to a PHEV, still needs all the same stuff to support that range extender functionality?
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Kind of, but fundamentally coming at the problem from the other direction. So starting with a full EV, but adding a 'small' generator. Down the i3 REX route, but without all the expensive carbon fibre.
 
Kenai said:
I think there's elements that will be simpler, as you don't need to try and integrate it directly into the drivetrain with clever gearboxes etc.

You can also design it without worrying about making it suitable for actually directly powering a car, you can design primarily for peak efficiency to recharge a battery, rather than worrying about whether it drives nicely, so it can then be smaller, quieter and lower powered - i3 REX was something like a 35hp engine for example.
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Some parts simpler maybe but not really much less complex, still needs a lot of the xtra complexity but the smaller battery does keep the weight more in check even with the engine, I really like the idea and absolutely love this

www.carthrottle.com

Mazda Iconic SP Concept Teases The Next Rotary Range-Extender MX-5

New EV MX-5 looks set to get a two-rotor range-extender, with 370bhp to call upon
www.carthrottle.com www.carthrottle.com

takes the MX30 R-EV range extender concept and turns it up to 11, this is something I'd be happier living with than a full BEV, though if the R-EV is anything to go by without charging its mpg is about the same as my 2.0 turbo 2 tonne PHEV which is not so hot, but I guess rotaries have never been great.
 
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I'm not sure Mazda's desperation to use a rotary for anything they can possibly think of is going to be the right solution for REX vehicles but at least they're pushing the idea and hopefully will spur a few other manufacturers to (re)think about the concept too.
 
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