This was my understanding also. Age plays a part especially if left for long periods, but I’ve got plenty of 10+ year old R/C LiPo cells that still have 95%+ capacity.
EV general discussion
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Soldato
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my over 3 year old ipace with 47k miles I bet is still within single digits of range off the car when it was brand new. obviously I can't say what it will be in 5 years time... but chances are so long as I am not in the ground I will still be here (maybe this thread will still be going) and I will report back 
The chemicals in them break down over time. Batteries do have a "use by" date. We aren't going to see many EVs driving around on their original batteries once they reach 20-30 years old. Which is a problem since you're unlikely to be able to get replacements once they reach that age.
We have just replaced a building UPS and the new one is using similar batteries to an EV. They put a 15 year lifespan on them.
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Soldato
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UPS is held at a high state of charge to enable their very purpose!!! Power interuption. Therefore they suffer from much higher calender aging. They do not see duty cyles like a car.
Im pretty sure theres a youtube video you could watch to help develop critical thinking, you seems to have pretty much zero.
Im 100% sure a USP array does not need to use expensive NMC cells. Cars have a much stronger requirement for power to mass, USP you just are after energy/cost.
#DailyMashCheck
Im pretty sure theres a youtube video you could watch to help develop critical thinking, you seems to have pretty much zero.
Im 100% sure a USP array does not need to use expensive NMC cells. Cars have a much stronger requirement for power to mass, USP you just are after energy/cost.
#DailyMashCheck
I’d be surprised if a UPS even had lithium batteries in it unless it was very high end. Particularly an older one that just needed a cell replacement.
They tend to use led acid batteries due to the relatively low cost and the need to be kept at maximum charge all the time. Power density also tends to be far less of an issue in a building. 10-15 years ago lithium cells were 5x the cost they are now.
They tend to use led acid batteries due to the relatively low cost and the need to be kept at maximum charge all the time. Power density also tends to be far less of an issue in a building. 10-15 years ago lithium cells were 5x the cost they are now.
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There is still going to be a use by date for them. It just might be longer. Also in a car the environment is a lot harsher than in a temperature monitored room.
And yes a LOT on money was spent on it.
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As has been pointed out, the application is completely different.
Cells in a UPS are held at their maximum state of charge for years as they have to be ready to kick in at their maximum performance within 20ms or what ever they are protecting will go offline.
The cells in an UPS are not in storage, they are in constant use for their entire lives. They are constantly being charged and discharged a tiny bit to keep them balanced and ready to go at their maximum output.
Funnily enough, an engine also has a shelf life if you actually use it and you’ll have replaced most of the parts on it at some point during its life (some multiple times) at an incredible cost compared to its initial value.
Soldato
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1 thing I will concede is, it would be much better if batteries were easier to replace. mind you this is a gripe of mine in everything going back to mobile phones. unfortunately with some cars using the battery as structural integrity of the car I can imagine it may not be cost effective to replace the battery in a 15 year old Tesla mod 3 worth less £5- £10k
so work to do there perhaps but then let's be honest . yes there are exceptions but my 2011 pug 308 which was otherwise in superb condition was written off due to door being destroyed and some other minor cosmetic damage.
it was just not economically viable to fix. hopefully someone will rescue it and strip it, but let's not pretend that otherwise decent ICE vehicles are not being written off due to a single expensive part failure. it is a general problem. not an EV problem .(it's not even a car problem really).. Cars are not made to be tinkered with to keep on the road any more. hell sod the battery. 10-15 years from now the bloody headlights on my car may write it off!.
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Spot on. My ICE car's headlights cost £2400 each. There is over 100 ECUs in the car. There will be a point when its not that old where it will easily get written off as an insurance loss based on the cost of new replacement parts.
Not even as an insurance loss, there is the annual MOT as well.
Once cars start throwing big maintenance bills to get them through an MOT, they tend to get scrapped also.
It’s not going to be fun replacing a £2500 headlight because it’s integrated DRL has failed and you have an MOT next week.
Once cars start throwing big maintenance bills to get them through an MOT, they tend to get scrapped also.
It’s not going to be fun replacing a £2500 headlight because it’s integrated DRL has failed and you have an MOT next week.
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yes,like that scania picture, I though stealing laser lights will become a thing .. that was your claim no.
how much do they cost though as part of original car bom, and is standalone replacement cost just another example of built in obsolescence
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10-20 years is the current estimate, how many EVs are in that bracket so far? Where are all these batteries going? The Sun Probably: "piles of old EVs batteries" - where?
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Yea you can't replace the bulbs in these things, such a dumb design. Or manufacturers setting themselves up for future business.
Make the headlights the single most expensive thing on the car. Genius.
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Soldato
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Nasher Still thinking LED with micro mirrors has 'bulbs' and cos you cant replace them they are dumb. Non Genius.
#MashCheck
#MashCheck
Indeed. Last year i had a light front end bump and bust the headlight and damaged the front but worst of all damaged the main sensor for all the auto driving stuff on my X5. Total cost was £12k.
I think the sensor was £3-4k. They mentioned something that it had to come from Germany as they have to program the vehicles chassis number to the sensor or something. Took 12 weeks for that to come
The thing is, we don't have to have it this way. This is just manufacturers trying to lock down third-party repair.
And also aftermarket parts.
Which is completely unnecessary tech costing the customer a fortune to fix later. Another idiot with a bright idea...
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Other than they are objectively better in every single way than a halogen lamp other than cost to replace.
If you needed to replace the entire halogen headlight assembly on an older car it would also cost £lol for a brand new part.
The issue here is not the LEDs it’s modern throw away manufacturing methodologies. The light units could be designed in a way where the LEDs, drivers and control electronics could be individually replaced easily by the end user but that’s not the way and wouldn’t benefit our corporate overlords.
It’s one reason I very much welcome the EUs rules on user replaceable batteries in things like phones.
If you needed to replace the entire halogen headlight assembly on an older car it would also cost £lol for a brand new part.
The issue here is not the LEDs it’s modern throw away manufacturing methodologies. The light units could be designed in a way where the LEDs, drivers and control electronics could be individually replaced easily by the end user but that’s not the way and wouldn’t benefit our corporate overlords.
It’s one reason I very much welcome the EUs rules on user replaceable batteries in things like phones.
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